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> Positive discrimination or just plain racism?, Pesron job applicants have to be "none white"
SirWilliam
post Jul 11 2017, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2017, 12:21 PM) *
At the end of the day, they are simply trying to make our society fairer and more of a meritocracy. Perhaps not going the right way about it, but there is nothing wrong with the intention. There is nothing new in our trying to eliminate discriminatory barriers; been going on for years. Many women still feel discriminated against for instance.

If this particular method of making things better isn't acceptable, does anyone have a better solution?


Extremely valid argument. The problem is that most people are perfectly happy with a totally inclusive society but take umbrage when it is shoved down our throats as though we are all bigots in need of educating. The irony is that those who still take the view that white male supremacy is a given are unlikely to be influenced by a few pages of legislation.

An alternative approach? I doubt it and surely that is the point, we are not so much doing something about the problem as being seen to do something in support of those who feel excluded.


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je suis Charlie
post Jul 11 2017, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2017, 11:21 AM) *
At the end of the day, they are simply trying to make our society fairer and more of a meritocracy. Perhaps not going the right way about it, but there is nothing wrong with the intention. There is nothing new in our trying to eliminate discriminatory barriers; been going on for years. Many women still feel discriminated against for instance.

If this particular method of making things better isn't acceptable, does anyone have a better solution?

People should succeed or fail on their merits not their skin colour.


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Biker1
post Jul 11 2017, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2017, 07:17 PM) *
People should succeed or fail on their merits not their skin colour.

Exactly!
Which is why most employers describe themselves as "equal opportunities"
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 11 2017, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2017, 08:57 AM) *
"The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

Its racist. By definition and by intent.

I'm happy with that as a definition of racism, however I don't agree that this racially-selective internship is racist by that definition. It's racially selective, that's undeniable, so it undeniably passes the first part of the test, but does that racial selection have the "purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life". Certainly taking a job is unambiguously an exercise of a fundamentl freedom in the economic field of public life, but this isn't a job, it's an internship designed to give the successful applicant equality of opportunity with non BAME condidates in applications for jobs in the creative sector.

The crux is that, all other things being equal and given the internship works as intended, a non-BAME individual who hasn't taken the internship is not going to be disadvantage in an application for a creative job but is going to be equally qualified on merit with the BAME intern. No one is disadvantaged so the racially-selective internship isn't racist.


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Andy Capp
post Jul 11 2017, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 07:50 PM) *
The crux is that, all other things being equal and given the internship works as intended, a non-BAME individual who hasn't taken the internship is not going to be disadvantage in an application for a creative job but is going to be equally qualified on merit with the BAME intern. No one is disadvantaged so the racially-selective internship isn't racist.

Unless you are white and want to apply for an internship.
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je suis Charlie
post Jul 11 2017, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 06:50 PM) *
I'm happy with that as a definition of racism, however I don't agree that this racially-selective internship is racist by that definition. It's racially selective, that's undeniable, so it undeniably passes the first part of the test, but does that racial selection have the "purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life". Certainly taking a job is unambiguously an exercise of a fundamentl freedom in the economic field of public life, but this isn't a job, it's an internship designed to give the successful applicant equality of opportunity with non BAME condidates in applications for jobs in the creative sector.

The crux is that, all other things being equal and given the internship works as intended, a non-BAME individual who hasn't taken the internship is not going to be disadvantage in an application for a creative job but is going to be equally qualified on merit with the BAME intern. No one is disadvantaged so the racially-selective internship isn't racist.

Not interested if you're happy with the definition, its THE definition! Clear, precise, definitive. "Exclusion based on colour" is the nitty gritty. No weasel words, no fudging, no obscuration, no 'corbynisms". Its racism. Fundamentally, in word in ethics and in law.


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Simon Kirby
post Jul 11 2017, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 11 2017, 08:51 PM) *
Unless you are white and want to apply for an internship.

But if you're white you don't need an internship to put you on a lavel playing field in the job market, you already have the advantage over BAME candidates because you're white. But yes, if a white candidate wanted to take advantage of the institutional racism and cultural disadvantage that has kept BAME candidates out of the performing arts then for sure, they'd want to get on an internship too so they'd be equally qualified as the BAME intern and secure the job because they're white, just like it's always been, but is that just?



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Simon Kirby
post Jul 11 2017, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2017, 09:09 PM) *
Not interested if you're happy with the definition, its THE definition! Clear, precise, definitive. "Exclusion based on colour" is the nitty gritty. No weasel words, no fudging, no obscuration, no 'corbynisms". Its racism. Fundamentally, in word in ethics and in law.

Exclusion based on colour is just one part of the definition, and for a thing to be racism by this definition you need to have both the exclusion element and the detriment.


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je suis Charlie
post Jul 11 2017, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 08:39 PM) *
But if you're white you don't need an internship to put you on a lavel playing field in the job market, you already have the advantage over BAME candidates because you're white.

So what you're saying is oh really!!


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 11 2017, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 09:42 PM) *
Exclusion based on colour is just one part of the definition, and for a thing to be racism by this definition you need to have both the exclusion element and the detriment.


So to sum up. White bad. None white good. Tell that to the forgotton white middle aged men who voted brexit. They they see adverts like that and you are actually surprised about the rise of the far right? Then again you'd probably just call them uneducated bigots. I see no racism in my workplace. The chap I work with is black, a fully qualified accountant and one of the nicest guys I know. Whats more he is an exceptional employee and being fast tracked. Its called "talent".
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je suis Charlie
post Jul 11 2017, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 11 2017, 08:52 PM) *
So to sum up. White bad. None white good. Tell that to the forgotton white middle aged men who voted brexit. They they see adverts like that and you are actually surprised about the rise of the far right? Then again you'd probably just call them uneducated bigots. I see no racism in my workplace. The chap I work with is black, a fully qualified accountant and one of the nicest guys I know. Whats more he is an exceptional employee and being fast tracked. Its called "talent".

Racist, nazi, Tory.😁😁😁


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 11 2017, 08:59 PM
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And on a lighter note has the world gone completely mad?

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Attached File  DEYuDDvXsAQ7xip.jpg ( 76.51K ) Number of downloads: 12
 
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On the edge
post Jul 11 2017, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 11 2017, 09:52 PM) *
So to sum up. White bad. None white good. Tell that to the forgotton white middle aged men who voted brexit. They they see adverts like that and you are actually surprised about the rise of the far right? Then again you'd probably just call them uneducated bigots. I see no racism in my workplace. The chap I work with is black, a fully qualified accountant and one of the nicest guys I know. Whats more he is an exceptional employee and being fast tracked. Its called "talent".


Does this fit with the comment you made about you not wanting to employ me without you knowing anything at all about my skills or fitness for the job? Frankly, I'm not surprised you are often 'leaned on' by your HR department!


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 11 2017, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2017, 10:28 PM) *
Does this fit with the comment you made about you not wanting to employ me without you knowing anything at all about my skills or fitness for the job? Frankly, I'm not surprised you are often 'leaned on' by your HR department!


Not at all. By commenting on this forum for years that gives me a much better insight into your character than a 1 to 2 hour interview. I think you would cause trouble in my department. I expect you have been a thorn in the side of a lot of people in the past. And you'll be proud of it.
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Andy Capp
post Jul 12 2017, 12:51 AM
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I read an interesting article where it stated that provided competence for a job is assumed, the chances of picking an ideal candidate for a job were only marginally better with an interview than if the decision was left to chance. In other words, a flip of a coin is almost as successful a method as an interview.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/20...s-are-pointless
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Biker1
post Jul 12 2017, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 11 2017, 09:59 PM) *
And on a lighter note has the world gone completely mad?

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
That is a joke right????
Please let it be a joke!!!!
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On the edge
post Jul 12 2017, 06:28 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 11 2017, 10:41 PM) *
Not at all. By commenting on this forum for years that gives me a much better insight into your character than a 1 to 2 hour interview. I think you would cause trouble in my department. I expect you have been a thorn in the side of a lot of people in the past. And you'll be proud of it.


A very sad commentary on your managerial competence.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 12 2017, 06:44 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 12 2017, 07:28 AM) *
A very sad commentary on your managerial competence.


Confirmation that you would be trouble. 👍
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On the edge
post Jul 12 2017, 06:59 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 12 2017, 07:44 AM) *
Confirmation that you would be trouble. 👍


Indeed. one of the reasons I wouldn't want to be employed by you anyway! You have at least confirmed that the biggest concern I had about Brexit, one that nearly stopped me voting to leave. That is, I was concerned that the UK didn't appear to have the management capability to go it alone. You have at least confirmed that; so perhaps the present political re-think is no bad thing.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 12 2017, 07:04 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 12 2017, 07:59 AM) *
Indeed. one of the reasons I wouldn't want to be employed by you anyway! You have at least confirmed that the biggest concern I had about Brexit, one that nearly stopped me voting to leave. That is, I was concerned that the UK didn't appear to have the management capability to go it alone. You have at least confirmed that; so perhaps the present political re-think is no bad thing.


Goodbye. Shut the door on the way out. You can't even perform trolling very well. Poor excuse for a human being.
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