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TallDarkAndHandsome
As this job is based in London and white British people make up less than 50% of the capital now surely they are now an ethnic minority?

https://creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/t...duction-intern/

Also if I advertised for a job and said "whites only" what would the social and media reaction be? My guess is I'd end up being prosecuted. Odd world....

And I just noticed... PESTON
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 8 2017, 08:18 PM) *
As this job is based in London and white people make up less than 50% of the capital now surely they are now an ethnic minority?

https://creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/t...duction-intern/

Also if I advertised for a job and said "whites only" what would the social and media reaction be? My guess is I'd end up being prosecuted. Odd world....

And I just noticed... PESTON

Yeah, rite on bro! Bit like black people make better parents than white people, yah?
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 8 2017, 09:35 PM) *
Yeah, rite on bro! Bit like black people make better parents than white people, yah?


What if I am white but "identify" as black? If I wear fake tan can I apply? What is "white"? Do they have some sort of dulux chart? Does this mean Jews can't apply?
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 8 2017, 08:43 PM) *
What if I am white but "identify" as black? If I wear fake tan can I apply? What is "white"? Do they have some sort of dulux chart? Does this mean Jews can't apply?

"Is it 'cos I is white?"
SirWilliam

Is being colour blind a valid excuse ? It will all end in tears. angry.gif
Biker1
Absolutely appalling.....and possibly illegal?? angry.gif
newres
It doesn't seem correct to me. It's an internship. Is that why it's possible?
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 9 2017, 10:29 AM) *
Absolutely appalling.....and possibly illegal?? angry.gif


I'd love an albino to apply. That would really mess the none white policy up.
SirWilliam

So if a non-black, ie white, person applies and is refused on the colour of their skin, surely this is discrimination on a par with pre-war USA? It matters not a jot what the job description is, to differentiate on the grounds of skin colour is appalling.

Any contributors to this forum who consider themselves " an ethnic minority" and wish to comment?
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 03:30 PM) *
So if a non-black, ie white, person applies and is refused on the colour of their skin, surely this is discrimination on a par with pre-war USA? It matters not a jot what the job description is, to differentiate on the grounds of skin colour is appalling.

Any contributors to this forum who consider themselves " an ethnic minority" and wish to comment?


This is the tip of the iceberg. I am constantly leaned on by HR to "diversify" my department. Gods honest truth. if I were born now I'd want to be asian or black. White is bad.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 03:30 PM) *
So if a non-black, ie white, person applies and is refused on the colour of their skin, surely this is discrimination on a par with pre-war USA? It matters not a jot what the job description is, to differentiate on the grounds of skin colour is appalling.

Any contributors to this forum who consider themselves " an ethnic minority" and wish to comment?


White British people in London are an ethnic minority. Be 10% in 10 years. White Flight. Thats why newres moved!!!😂😂
SirWilliam

So what do those who brought us to this place have to say ? Taken it to its logical conclusion in 200 years time school children will be taught about a pale-skinned race that was once predominant but now sadly extinct.
Mr Brown
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 07:46 PM) *
So what do those who brought us to this place have to say ? Taken it to its logical conclusion in 200 years time school children will be taught about a pale-skinned race that was once predominant but now sadly extinct.


Natural selection; survival of the fittest?
SirWilliam
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Jul 9 2017, 08:19 PM) *
Natural selection; survival of the fittest?


Darwin has a lot to answer for. Please reference my signature. wink.gif
je suis Charlie
The Seagulls Bed And Breakfast

Vacancies

No pets!
No Irish!
No whites!
Mr Brown
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 08:31 PM) *
Darwin has a lot to answer for. Please reference my signature. wink.gif


So spake the dodo.

Anyway, as to your signature, why should anyone leave? Migrants have generally been successful here, they seem to like it, so why should they go? Running our NHS, picking our crops, waiting on us in cafes; the indigenous species isn't looking after itself.
On the edge
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 08:31 PM) *
Darwin has a lot to answer for. Please reference my signature. wink.gif


Perhaps he did Sir, a dead language for a dieing people.....
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 9 2017, 07:52 PM) *
Perhaps he did Sir, a dead language for a dieing people.....

Oooh, here comes the grammar police!

Dying is the present participle of die, i.e., to cease living.
If you are dieing something, you are cutting or stamping it with a die.
On the edge
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 9 2017, 08:59 PM) *
Oooh, here comes the grammar police!

Dying is the present participle of die, i.e., to cease living.
If you are dieing something, you are cutting or stamping it with a die.


Yeah, stamping out the redundant race.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 9 2017, 08:03 PM) *
Yeah, stamping out the redundant race.

And, judging by your efforts, the English language as well.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Jul 9 2017, 12:18 PM) *
It doesn't seem correct to me. It's an internship. Is that why it's possible?


You are not going to say it is just plain wrong then? Surely you cant defend the indefensible...
On the edge
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 9 2017, 09:37 PM) *
You are not going to say it is just plain wrong then? Surely you cant defend the indefensible...


And just what have you ever done to try and stop this sort of thing? It's clearly institutionalised and if it were so wrong, then surely our legal system would provide a remedy. You clearly have a strong principled opinion here, so what's the next action?


TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 9 2017, 10:07 PM) *
And just what have you ever done to try and stop this sort of thing? It's clearly institutionalised and if it were so wrong, then surely our legal system would provide a remedy. You clearly have a strong principled opinion here, so what's the next action?


Yawn..... This is a forum. Its for chewing the fat. Get a life.
On the edge
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 10 2017, 12:41 AM) *
Yawn..... This is a forum. Its for chewing the fat. Get a life.


Really?

Nice attitude old son, glad I don't work for you!
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 10 2017, 06:37 AM) *
Really?

Nice attitude old son, glad I don't work for you!


You couldn't. You'd fail the interview. BADLY. 😂
On the edge
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 10 2017, 07:32 AM) *
You couldn't. You'd fail the interview. BADLY. 😂

Again, so glad; such interviews are generally designed to select mirror images of those doing the recruiting. So self perpetuating, meaning you'll only learn that when it's too late. Ironic really; attitude was one of the key reasons we started deploying IT from India.
spartacus
I'm outraged. When members of the Travelling Community offer people unpaid employment it's called slavery. But when ethnic minorities are offered the same opportunities it's called an internship. Bigots!
Simon Kirby
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 8 2017, 09:18 PM) *
As this job is based in London and white British people make up less than 50% of the capital now surely they are now an ethnic minority?

https://creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/t...duction-intern/

Also if I advertised for a job and said "whites only" what would the social and media reaction be? My guess is I'd end up being prosecuted. Odd world....

And I just noticed... PESTON

Black, Asian and other minority ethnicities are grossly underrepreented in the staff of the BBC, so there has been some long-standing institutional discrimination on the part of the BBC against employing BAME candidates, or else the opportunities have not been there for BAME candidates to qualify as the best candidates for the job, or both. Either way I can see the justice in positive discrimination to redress this.

OK, so an advert that so explicitly discriminates against people on the basis of their ethnicity is pretty objectionable if you believe in equality of opportunity, but all the same I can still see the justice in this.

However, the injustice that remains is that only candidates who are independently supported can accept an internship in London on 15k, so this kind of positive discrimination may possibly even out the institutional discrimination that has historically excluded BAME candidates from jobs at the Beeb, but it only reinforces the discrimination against candidates who aren't the children of rich parents.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 06:07 PM) *
Black, Asian and other minority ethnicities are grossly underrepreented in the staff of the BBC, so there has been some long-standing institutional discrimination on the part of the BBC against employing BAME candidates, or else the opportunities have not been there for BAME

Proof? Evidence? Figures?
Simon Kirby
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 10 2017, 06:35 PM) *
Proof? Evidence? Figures?

I think I read it in the Daily Mail.
Simon Kirby
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 10 2017, 06:35 PM) *
Proof? Evidence? Figures?

And then there's what the BBC said about it too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnew...sentation-plans
Simon Kirby
I think it's important to recognise that these internships are not jobs, they are training opportunities to give underrepresented BAME candidates the opportunity and experience to succeed in open and fair recruitment for future jobs.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 07:27 PM) *
I think I read it in the Daily Mail.

You mean someone read it for you.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 07:33 PM) *
And then there's what the BBC said about it too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnew...sentation-plans

And I'm sure Miss Marple will benefit from a good healthy injection of Winston, Mohammad and Jafri!!
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 08:38 PM) *
I think it's important to recognise that these internships are not jobs, they are training opportunities to give underrepresented BAME candidates the opportunity and experience to succeed in open and fair recruitment for future jobs.


Racism. Don't care how you package it. Nothing less. Again I ask what would be the reaction to a job advert for whites only interns. I would be disgusted - as I am about this. Its indefensible.
spartacus
Just because you look more Talcum-X than Malcolm-X doesn't mean you're not who you identify as....

So long as you identify as non-white, no-one should have a problem with you applying. And if you think that you've been discriminated against because of how you appear then you should sue the racist b**tards.

I mean if a man can have a baby linky thing then surely the mere fact of having pale complexion shouldn't prevent you thinking and believing yourself to be black.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (spartacus @ Jul 10 2017, 09:29 PM) *
Just because you look more Talcum-X than Malcolm-X doesn't mean you're not who you identify as....

So long as you identify as non-white, no-one should have a problem with you applying. And if you think that you've been discriminated against because of how you appear then you should sue the racist b**tards.

I mean if a man can have a baby linky thing then surely the mere fact of having pale complexion shouldn't prevent you thinking and believing yourself to be black.

You iz ma bro man! Dig it! You n me against whitey! Ride on!
Simon Kirby
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 10 2017, 10:16 PM) *
Racism. Don't care how you package it. Nothing less. Again I ask what would be the reaction to a job advert for whites only interns. I would be disgusted - as I am about this. Its indefensible.

No, not racism. Racism is the discrimination that has excluded BAME candidates from the creative industries. Creating internships to redress the disadvantage of BAME candidates so that they can compete for jobs at parity with non-BAME candidates doesn't discriminate against anyone, it just creates a level playing field.
je suis Charlie
"The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

Its racist. By definition and by intent.
On the edge
At the end of the day, they are simply trying to make our society fairer and more of a meritocracy. Perhaps not going the right way about it, but there is nothing wrong with the intention. There is nothing new in our trying to eliminate discriminatory barriers; been going on for years. Many women still feel discriminated against for instance.

If this particular method of making things better isn't acceptable, does anyone have a better solution?
SirWilliam
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2017, 12:21 PM) *
At the end of the day, they are simply trying to make our society fairer and more of a meritocracy. Perhaps not going the right way about it, but there is nothing wrong with the intention. There is nothing new in our trying to eliminate discriminatory barriers; been going on for years. Many women still feel discriminated against for instance.

If this particular method of making things better isn't acceptable, does anyone have a better solution?


Extremely valid argument. The problem is that most people are perfectly happy with a totally inclusive society but take umbrage when it is shoved down our throats as though we are all bigots in need of educating. The irony is that those who still take the view that white male supremacy is a given are unlikely to be influenced by a few pages of legislation.

An alternative approach? I doubt it and surely that is the point, we are not so much doing something about the problem as being seen to do something in support of those who feel excluded.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2017, 11:21 AM) *
At the end of the day, they are simply trying to make our society fairer and more of a meritocracy. Perhaps not going the right way about it, but there is nothing wrong with the intention. There is nothing new in our trying to eliminate discriminatory barriers; been going on for years. Many women still feel discriminated against for instance.

If this particular method of making things better isn't acceptable, does anyone have a better solution?

People should succeed or fail on their merits not their skin colour.
Biker1
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2017, 07:17 PM) *
People should succeed or fail on their merits not their skin colour.

Exactly!
Which is why most employers describe themselves as "equal opportunities"
Simon Kirby
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2017, 08:57 AM) *
"The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

Its racist. By definition and by intent.

I'm happy with that as a definition of racism, however I don't agree that this racially-selective internship is racist by that definition. It's racially selective, that's undeniable, so it undeniably passes the first part of the test, but does that racial selection have the "purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life". Certainly taking a job is unambiguously an exercise of a fundamentl freedom in the economic field of public life, but this isn't a job, it's an internship designed to give the successful applicant equality of opportunity with non BAME condidates in applications for jobs in the creative sector.

The crux is that, all other things being equal and given the internship works as intended, a non-BAME individual who hasn't taken the internship is not going to be disadvantage in an application for a creative job but is going to be equally qualified on merit with the BAME intern. No one is disadvantaged so the racially-selective internship isn't racist.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 07:50 PM) *
The crux is that, all other things being equal and given the internship works as intended, a non-BAME individual who hasn't taken the internship is not going to be disadvantage in an application for a creative job but is going to be equally qualified on merit with the BAME intern. No one is disadvantaged so the racially-selective internship isn't racist.

Unless you are white and want to apply for an internship.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 06:50 PM) *
I'm happy with that as a definition of racism, however I don't agree that this racially-selective internship is racist by that definition. It's racially selective, that's undeniable, so it undeniably passes the first part of the test, but does that racial selection have the "purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life". Certainly taking a job is unambiguously an exercise of a fundamentl freedom in the economic field of public life, but this isn't a job, it's an internship designed to give the successful applicant equality of opportunity with non BAME condidates in applications for jobs in the creative sector.

The crux is that, all other things being equal and given the internship works as intended, a non-BAME individual who hasn't taken the internship is not going to be disadvantage in an application for a creative job but is going to be equally qualified on merit with the BAME intern. No one is disadvantaged so the racially-selective internship isn't racist.

Not interested if you're happy with the definition, its THE definition! Clear, precise, definitive. "Exclusion based on colour" is the nitty gritty. No weasel words, no fudging, no obscuration, no 'corbynisms". Its racism. Fundamentally, in word in ethics and in law.
Simon Kirby
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 11 2017, 08:51 PM) *
Unless you are white and want to apply for an internship.

But if you're white you don't need an internship to put you on a lavel playing field in the job market, you already have the advantage over BAME candidates because you're white. But yes, if a white candidate wanted to take advantage of the institutional racism and cultural disadvantage that has kept BAME candidates out of the performing arts then for sure, they'd want to get on an internship too so they'd be equally qualified as the BAME intern and secure the job because they're white, just like it's always been, but is that just?

Simon Kirby
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2017, 09:09 PM) *
Not interested if you're happy with the definition, its THE definition! Clear, precise, definitive. "Exclusion based on colour" is the nitty gritty. No weasel words, no fudging, no obscuration, no 'corbynisms". Its racism. Fundamentally, in word in ethics and in law.

Exclusion based on colour is just one part of the definition, and for a thing to be racism by this definition you need to have both the exclusion element and the detriment.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 08:39 PM) *
But if you're white you don't need an internship to put you on a lavel playing field in the job market, you already have the advantage over BAME candidates because you're white.

So what you're saying is oh really!!
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 09:42 PM) *
Exclusion based on colour is just one part of the definition, and for a thing to be racism by this definition you need to have both the exclusion element and the detriment.


So to sum up. White bad. None white good. Tell that to the forgotton white middle aged men who voted brexit. They they see adverts like that and you are actually surprised about the rise of the far right? Then again you'd probably just call them uneducated bigots. I see no racism in my workplace. The chap I work with is black, a fully qualified accountant and one of the nicest guys I know. Whats more he is an exceptional employee and being fast tracked. Its called "talent".
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