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Mr Brown
post Nov 6 2017, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 6 2017, 07:21 AM) *
PR = Proportional representation, not public relations. smile.gif


The problem with sound bite shorthand illustrated at a stroke.

It's a bit ironic really, but it was EU 'party list' type proportional representation that did for me. We ended up with a bunch of unknown chancers who had little connect with their constituencies, still less with their electors. As the EU demonstrates, it makes for poor government.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 6 2017, 01:10 PM
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PR is the obvious route but how do you get a diverse cross section of opinion to agree on anything ? When the Greeks developed democracy they abandoned it almost as quickly because it took 3 months to decide who was going to make the tea .
What we need are those who stand for office to approach their position with a view to the good of the Country and not the minority pressure groups that see fit to court favour . This would negate the need for an upper house at a stroke .


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Mr Brown
post Nov 6 2017, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 6 2017, 01:10 PM) *
PR is the obvious route but how do you get a diverse cross section of opinion to agree on anything ? When the Greeks developed democracy they abandoned it almost as quickly because it took 3 months to decide who was going to make the tea .
What we need are those who stand for office to approach their position with a view to the good of the Country and not the minority pressure groups that see fit to court favour . This would negate the need for an upper house at a stroke .


The trouble is, of course, with PR you inevitably end up with rule by minority pressure groups. A rainbow coalitions in power for decades.
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newres
post Nov 6 2017, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 6 2017, 03:56 PM) *
The trouble is, of course, with PR you inevitably end up with rule by minority pressure groups.

Got any examples of minority pressure groups ruling countries?
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Andy Capp
post Nov 6 2017, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 6 2017, 05:20 PM) *
Got any examples of minority pressure groups ruling countries?

UK.
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Mr Brown
post Nov 6 2017, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 6 2017, 05:20 PM) *
Got any examples of minority pressure groups ruling countries?


Italy.
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newres
post Nov 6 2017, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Nov 6 2017, 06:20 PM) *
UK.

Exactly the example I thought of. And no PR,
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Mr Brown
post Nov 6 2017, 10:18 PM
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The UK certainly isn't ruled by minority pressure groups, even though it might seem so on occasions. Of course pressure groups try and often succeed in influencing party policy; but party still rules. As we saw in the previous coalition, the LibDems had quite limited effect on government policy. In this government, the Unionists are actually a breed of Tory.
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newres
post Nov 7 2017, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 6 2017, 10:18 PM) *
The UK certainly isn't ruled by minority pressure groups, even though it might seem so on occasions. Of course pressure groups try and often succeed in influencing party policy; but party still rules. As we saw in the previous coalition, the LibDems had quite limited effect on government policy. In this government, the Unionists are actually a breed of Tory.

UKIP. wink.gif

We are exiting Europe because of a pressure group stealing votes from the tories.
.
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Mr Brown
post Nov 7 2017, 07:09 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 7 2017, 06:29 AM) *
UKIP. wink.gif

We are exiting Europe because of a pressure group stealing votes from the tories.
.


UKIP, was really no more than an irritant. The Conservatives took us out of Europe because they'd never settled the fundamental question properly themselves. What the leaders of the party espouse is not always in line with the majority of their supporters. Conservative discontent about Europe hadn't dropped since their leadership took us in.
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Andy Capp
post Nov 7 2017, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 7 2017, 07:09 AM) *
UKIP, was really no more than an irritant. The Conservatives took us out of Europe because they'd never settled the fundamental question properly themselves. What the leaders of the party espouse is not always in line with the majority of their supporters. Conservative discontent about Europe hadn't dropped since their leadership took us in.

Religious groups, the food industry, the media, bankers and other wealthy entities are or have pressure groups which determine how we live our lives.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 7 2017, 02:40 PM
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The list is endless; maybe they should form a new political party cool.gif


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newres
post Nov 7 2017, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 7 2017, 07:09 AM) *
UKIP, was really no more than an irritant. The Conservatives took us out of Europe because they'd never settled the fundamental question properly themselves. What the leaders of the party espouse is not always in line with the majority of their supporters. Conservative discontent about Europe hadn't dropped since their leadership took us in.

UKIP is the reason we had the referendum. No UKIP, no referendum. The Tories stuck it in the manifesto to shore up their vote which was deserting to UKIP.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 7 2017, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 7 2017, 03:09 PM) *
UKIP is the reason we had the referendum. No UKIP, no referendum. The Tories stuck it in the manifesto to shore up their vote which was deserting to UKIP.


You are quite correct . Had Cameron not panicked over the thought of millions of disillusioned Tories changing their allegiance to Farage and his "bovver boys " , ( like that was ever going to happen ) , the referendum would never have been called and everyone in the Country would still be friends with their neighbours .Of course his second and even bigger mistake was not gauging the amount of anti European sentiment and loathing for a federalist overlord the populace at large held.
Of course UKIP / Johnson / Gove et al claim the credit but in all honesty if they had sodded off to Mars for the duration the outcome would have been the same , all we have to do now is convince a lot of other people that , rightly or wrongly , it is a fait accompli .


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je suis Charlie
post Nov 7 2017, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 7 2017, 03:09 PM) *
UKIP is the reason we had the referendum. No UKIP, no referendum. The Tories stuck it in the manifesto to shore up their vote which was deserting to UKIP.

Yay!! tongue.gif


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Mr Brown
post Nov 7 2017, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 7 2017, 03:49 PM) *
You are quite correct . Had Cameron not panicked over the thought of millions of disillusioned Tories changing their allegiance to Farage and his "bovver boys " , ( like that was ever going to happen ) , the referendum would never have been called and everyone in the Country would still be friends with their neighbours .Of course his second and even bigger mistake was not gauging the amount of anti European sentiment and loathing for a federalist overlord the populace at large held.
Of course UKIP / Johnson / Gove et al claim the credit but in all honesty if they had sodded off to Mars for the duration the outcome would have been the same , all we have to do now is convince a lot of other people that , rightly or wrongly , it is a fait accompli .


Not a bad synopsys. The Tories have never been committed to Europe, as we saw very plainly in both Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major's time. Like it or not, the Country is traditionally Tory, so arguably, the anti Tory MPs have always been attuned to popular opinion. I'd certainly agree that with or without UKIP, the referendum result would have been the same. The Tories saw the Europe issue as a constant running sore in the party and that's what Cameron was trying to cover. Arguably putting party before country; another Tory trait!

If we are looking to apportion blame for the referendum result, I'd argue that the EU executive and Euro MEPs were the real culprits - 40 years of failing to get a positive message across.
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Turin Machine
post Nov 7 2017, 05:31 PM
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This is something the French do very well, everywhere you go there are large renewal schemes, village and town squares, new bridges etc all accompanied with a massive great sign saying whats been done, how much it cost and how many millions came from Europe. The French are left in no doubt as to what they are getting. Good PR job.
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newres
post Nov 7 2017, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Nov 7 2017, 05:10 PM) *
Not a bad synopsys. The Tories have never been committed to Europe, as we saw very plainly in both Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major's time. Like it or not, the Country is traditionally Tory, so arguably, the anti Tory MPs have always been attuned to popular opinion. I'd certainly agree that with or without UKIP, the referendum result would have been the same. The Tories saw the Europe issue as a constant running sore in the party and that's what Cameron was trying to cover. Arguably putting party before country; another Tory trait!

If we are looking to apportion blame for the referendum result, I'd argue that the EU executive and Euro MEPs were the real culprits - 40 years of failing to get a positive message across.

I 100% disagree with almost all of that. Certainly the EU isn’t perfect. Neither is our own parliament/democracy. Look what’s happening now with the “sex” scandals. Ludicrous. Look at the unelected Lords. Look at lobbying scandals and so on. I think people understood that. What UKIP did was to shift the blame for everything to the EU including refugees from Syria which if anything are a product of US and UK interference in the Middle East.

Thatcher and Major weren’t anti EU. What about Maastricht? I’m not sure what the exact split is on Brexit but it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of Tiry MPs weren’t remainers. I’m quite prepared to be wrong on that. You are probably right though that a majority of party members voted for Brexit, but given the age demographic and the nationalistic slant of the tories that’s no surprise.
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Turin Machine
post Nov 7 2017, 05:53 PM
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From the independent;

"Mr Cameron and the political class in general underestimated the groundswell of public resentment caused by the influx of European migrants to the country since accession of Eastern European countries in the early 2000s.

To begin with Polish plumbers, builders, waitresses and bar staff were generally welcomed. But the financial crash of 2008 and the fall in living standards it resulted in stoked resentments which politicians from all three major parties were too slow to recognise and respond to."

So, yes, while it is true that the catalyst for this was ukip and it's growing influence on voters feelings and concerns all they did was to merely ride along on the growing groundswell.
And let's not forget a significant amount of 'leave' vote came from Northern working class areas, traditional labour territories so the conservative electorate is not entirely to blame.
The major 'stay' vote was in the London region which is high in liberals, fortunately it wasn't enough. Maybe if more millennials and hipsters had got off their ***** to vote it might have turned out differently. Who knows.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Nov 7 2017, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Nov 7 2017, 05:53 PM) *
From the independent;

"Mr Cameron and the political class in general underestimated the groundswell of public resentment caused by the influx of European migrants to the country since accession of Eastern European countries in the early 2000s.

To begin with Polish plumbers, builders, waitresses and bar staff were generally welcomed. But the financial crash of 2008 and the fall in living standards it resulted in stoked resentments which politicians from all three major parties were too slow to recognise and respond to."

So, yes, while it is true that the catalyst for this was ukip and it's growing influence on voters feelings and concerns all they did was to merely ride along on the growing groundswell.
And let's not forget a significant amount of 'leave' vote came from Northern working class areas, traditional labour territories so the conservative electorate is not entirely to blame.
The major 'stay' vote was in the London region which is high in liberals, fortunately it wasn't enough. Maybe if more millennials and hipsters had got off their ***** to vote it might have turned out differently. Who knows.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41893598

😂😂
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