Newbury Train Station, GWR, Network Rail, Shame Shame Shame Options

[TallDarkAndHands...]

On January 20th 2016 I was coming home from work on the 1730 from Reading to Newbury. I had had a busy day and was looking forward to a good evening.

Whilst on the train the temperature dropped dramatically. I was well wrapped up though so thought no more of it...

I arrived at Newbury Station and on exiting the station stepped on a frozen metal pole which caused me to fall. Trying to save myself from falling into the Network rail pumps that have been there for what seems like forever I put my right arm out. Whack! Phew I thought as I lay on the frozen floor. Then I tried to move. Never felt pain like it... My shoulder was badly dislocated. I cannot describe the pain. It was worse than a broken bone.... Paramedics were called, clothes were cut off including a suit and overcoat. Morphine etc was given. 3 attempts it took to get it back in at the Royal Berks. Off work for weeks and having a permanent weakness now in my shoulder is nothing compared to trying to get justice...

I tried to stupidly get some compensation for this incident as it was clearly no fault of mine. 13 months later and having contacted GWR, Newbury Train Station, Network Rail I have now been fobbed off to West Berks Council. I guess l'll just have to sue the employees on duty that day as all the big companies no longer accept liablity for anything. In the words of the donald. SEE YOU IN COURT.

[je suis Charlie]

Get ya lawyers on em! Sick em good!

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Get ya lawyers on em! Sick em good!

Never had a penny off anyone in my life for anything. But when something does happen you hope that it would be straightforward to claim for something that has caused you a lot of pain, distress and expense. Not the case. I suppose if all else fails I can stand in front of a train. That would be a lot more expensive for GWR.
Who without doubt are at fault. Im so goddam angry. By the way I wont be standing in front of a train but Im beginning to understand why people do... Especially dealing with GWR. W@nkers.

[je suis Charlie]

Quick enough to take your money though

[je suis Charlie]

I wish you well of it.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

I wish you well of it.

Thanks chap.Needed a vent

[Simon Kirby]

Never had a penny off anyone in my life for anything. But when something does happen you hope that it would be straightforward to claim for something that has caused you a lot of pain, distress and expense. Not the case. I suppose if all else fails I can stand in front of a train. That would be a lot more expensive for GWR.
Who without doubt are at fault. Im so goddam angry. By the way I wont be standing in front of a train but Im beginning to understand why people do... Especially dealing with GWR. W@nkers.

I'm sorry about your accident, not nice at all. However, if you're to get any money out of someone to compensate you for your injury you'll need to show that they were negligent in discharging their duty of care. From what you've said so far - stepping onto a frozen pavement which had frozen in a relatively sudden drop in temperature - I think you might struggle to show negligence. Best bet is probably to call one of those no-win-no-fee Jonnies as they'll see this kind of thing all the time and give you a good idea of your chances of success and represent you for free if they think you have a good claim.

Silly question probably, but you're not in a trades union are you, as they may well represent you in this.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

I'm sorry about your accident, not nice at all. However, if you're to get any money out of someone to compensate you for your injury you'll need to show that they were negligent in discharging their duty of care. From what you've said so far - stepping onto a frozen pavement which had frozen in a relatively sudden drop in temperature - I think you might struggle to show negligence. Best bet is probably to call one of those no-win-no-fee Jonnies as they'll see this kind of thing all the time and give you a good idea of your chances of success and represent you for free if they think you have a good claim.

Silly question probably, but you're not in a trades union are you, as they may well represent you in this.

Trade Union? Whats one of those?😮 Not a frozen pavement. A metal pole that had no place in an exit. Funnily enough it had been replaced by the next day by a rubber one and signs put up warning people.... Hopefully my accident has saved others. Shame shame shame though on these corporate scum. And people wonder why you end up with trump, le pen, brexit and co. I might even design a sign and stand outside Newbury Station. Might get some press...

[On the edge]

Sad to hear about your accident and the aftermath, I certainly hope the log jam you are in starts to clear very soon.

It's perhaps an object lesson for us all. First, those who carp on about 'elf n safety' and what a waste of time. All of us need to take risk assessments very seriously and properly consider what might happen. The issues with the pole could have been foreseen, but in our own lives and work environments we all know why 'those at the coal face' simply keep quiet. Second, the complaints process; again a society self inflicted wound. How often do we hear or see people complaining about what are really discomforts - even for stuff they've done themselves. Pop into Casualty at any Hospital Saturday evening. Clearly, not your case, and I wish you success, but we 'the me' generation have done you no favours.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

My aim is to ensure that I put enough people off travelling by train that I cost GWR more than they owe me. Much more.... They now have a war. One that I cannot win. But I can cause them damage and be a complete pain in the ****. Im going to encourage people to use other transport 24/7. Oh and I think Ill be really obtuse and act stupid. Ill block machines by pretending to not know how to use them and be vague when buying tickets. Sorry everyone. You are going to suffer now because of GWR.

[Cognosco]

My aim is to ensure that I put enough people off travelling by train that I cost GWR more than they owe me. Much more.... They now have a war. One that I cannot win. But I can cause them damage and be a complete pain in the ****. Im going to encourage people to use other transport 24/7. Oh and I think Ill be really obtuse and act stupid. Ill block machines by pretending to not know how to use them and be vague when buying tickets. Sorry everyone. You are going to suffer now because of GWR.

Careful you may be declared vexatious!

[Turin Machine]

Kick 'em in the profits, only language they understand.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Kick 'em in the profits, only language they understand.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017...way-delay-repay

Good god. Service is run by Crapita. Crapita and GWR! I'm surprised any trains run at all and ANY complaints get answered...

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Got the names of the GWR employees on duty that day.
Got photos of before and after.
They deserve to lose the franchise.
Most expensive per mile in the EU.
Overcrowded.
Diabolical customer service run by #crapita
Electrification delayed.
Self service machines that dont offer value.
Self service machines that dont work.
Cheaper to buy numerous tickets for the same journey than one.
Trains delayed.
Trains cancelled.
Last minute platform changes.
Bull**** announcements about delays.
Rude staff.
Ignorant staff.
New Hitachi trains that never arrive.
Dirty trains.
Signalling failures.
Freight trains..
Late train crews.
Crap GWR train app where you cant buy the right ticket unless its a week in advance.
Cheaper diesel. More expensive journeys.
Losing the buffet cars.
Fatcat salaries.
And on and on.....

[Turin Machine]

And I used to love those buffet cats!

[Andy Capp]

Last minute platform changes.

And can't even be bothered to announce on the board of the platform it was due at. That caused me to lose my religion that did.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

And I used to love those buffet cats!

Corrected.

[Biker1]

Was going to be reply to the list of comments by TDH but changed my mind!

[blackdog]

...
Most expensive per mile in the EU.
...

Well, at least that one is going to change.

[On the edge]

Well, at least that one is going to change.

Yes, once our contributions cease and the EU can't redistribute it to covertly subsidise Greek public transport etc.

[blackdog]

Yes, once our contributions cease and the EU can't redistribute it to covertly subsidise Greek public transport etc.

No, once we leave the EU, when even as the prices rise and grow even more expesive than any in the EU, they will not be in the EU.

[On the edge]

No, once we leave the EU, when even as the prices rise and grow even more expesive than any in the EU, they will not be in the EU.

Any idea where the EU will get the money to replace our contribution?

Currency fluctuations will also affect the Euro.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Any idea where the EU will get the money to replace our contribution?

Currency fluctuations will also affect the Euro.

We wont be leaving anything... By the end of the summer the EU will be no more.

[Turin Machine]

We wont be leaving anything... By the end of the summer the EU will be no more.

Don't count your chickens just yet, a Mr T Blair has crawled out from under his stone and he's on the case now! Ohnoes! 11111 eleventy! We're all in trouble now!

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Don't count your chickens just yet, a Mr T Blair has crawled out from under his stone and he's on the case now! Ohnoes! 11111 eleventy! We're all in trouble now!

If you want a laugh just review the HYS comments on BBC. He is as popular as Gary Glitter.

[blackdog]

Any idea where the EU will get the money to replace our contribution?

From the tariffs they place on imports from the UK? And the savings on payments to our MEPs.

Currency fluctuations will also affect the Euro.

They affect all currencies - the collapse in the pound is not all bad - we may have to pay 20% more for imports, but we can always decide not to buy them. Meanwhile UK goods are cheaper on the international market, until prices have to rise to compensate for the higher costs of imported raw materials, fuel etc.

On the real plus side we seem to be getting some inflation, leading to higher interest rates, diminishing mortgages etc - at last!

[Turin Machine]

If you want a laugh just review the HYS comments on BBC. He is as popular as Gary Glitter.

The man's an utter clownshoe.

[Biker1]

Back on "track"
If GWR lost the franchise who do you think may be suitable to take it over and how do you think things will improve by doing so?
Same trains. (Although they will be a nice new colour!)
Same staff. (Although in nice new uniforms!)
Same track.
Same stations.
Same ticket machines.
Same PA / information system. (With what I will agree is often poor / late information.)
Same signals.
Same track circuits. (Being replaced by axle counters, which also seem prone to failure!)
Same freight trains (whatever you mean by that!).
Same lorries hitting bridges.
Same trespassers / suicides.
Same overcrowding.
Same public making trains dirty.
Same cleaners. (Or lack!)
I suppose I could go on but point made??

If you look at other TOC's most if not all have the same issues.
The ones that seem to have the best performance figures are the ones that have the newest trains and the most up to date infrastructure. That is coming with GWR although I will agree, ridiculously overpriced and overdue!. (Not GWR's fault. It would be same situation under any TOC.)

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Back on "track"
If GWR lost the franchise who do you think may be suitable to take it over and how do you think things will improve by doing so?
Same trains. (Although they will be a nice new colour!)
Same staff. (Although in nice new uniforms!)
Same track.
Same stations.
Same ticket machines.
Same PA / information system. (With what I will agree is often poor / late information.)
Same signals.
Same track circuits. (Being replaced by axle counters, which also seem prone to failure!)
Same freight trains (whatever you mean by that!).
Same lorries hitting bridges.
Same trespassers / suicides.
Same overcrowding.
Same public making trains dirty.
Same cleaners. (Or lack!)
I suppose I could go on but point made??

If you look at other TOC's most if not all have the same issues.
The ones that seem to have the best performance figures are the ones that have the newest trains and the most up to date infrastructure. That is coming with GWR although I will agree, ridiculously overpriced and overdue!. (Not GWR's fault. It would be same situation under any TOC.)

They are still sh!t. 3 trains to London this week and no seat on any day. I did comandeer the toilet on Tuesday. Hope no one pooped themselves.

[Andy Capp]

The things I don't like about GWR are the little things, the detail. Things I think could be changed.

Make the ticket machines print tickets that look like the ones from the box office: they have a nice big 'OUT' and 'RTN' printed in the corner.
Ticket machines: stop obliterating the entire screen with a white box and arrow to show me where to pay, but because of it, I am unable to confirm the ticket I wish to buy. That winds me up a treat.
Put platform alterations on the overhead display of the platform the train was scheduled to arrive at. How many times have I tried to hear a platform alteration just as another bleedin train pulls in.
Make sure the tickertape displays in trains are running and showing the next stations before the train departs. Sod the 'Welcome aboard' message, I want to know it is the correct train.
When you stop the train, say: "This is <insert station name>, please alight now", or something like that; buses do this. I have been sat using my computer waiting for the train to stop and not realise it has stopped, but am not able to see the station as the internal lights are too bright and the station lights are too dim.

There's more, but those spring to mind.

[Biker1]

They are still sh!t. 3 trains to London this week and no seat on any day. I did comandeer the toilet on Tuesday. Hope no one pooped themselves.

Again, would be the same under any TOC.

[Biker1]

The things I don't like about GWR are the little things, the detail. Things I think could be changed.

Make the ticket machines print tickets that look like the ones from the box office: they have I nice big 'OUT' and 'RTN' printed in the corner.

There's more, but those spring to mind.

That's good!
The change in ticket design was implemented due to customer request as they found the old style difficult to understand!!

[Andy Capp]

That's good!

I suspected your sarcasm emulates that of GWR's attitude to its customers, which explains a lot.

That's good!
The change in ticket design was implemented due to customer request as they found the old style difficult to understand!!

My annoyance is the font size. I can't see at a glance which ticket I have. Make 'Outward' look like 'OUTWARD' and 'Return' look like 'RETURN', so I don't need my bleedin readers to see it. Assuming that is the design change you mean? Other than that, I can't see any other real difference.

[On the edge]

Basic customer service failure is endemic in the UK. We now have legions of mangers who simply don't understand about 'putting themselves in the customers shoes'. As for basic technology 'user testing' - if it works, it goes. Again, sadly, this simply reinforces a concern I had voting Brexit, we don't seem to have the skill sets anymore.
The UK has any amount of supervisors, very few managers and a dearth of leaders. All NCOs and no officers!

It isn't just railways. Sainsbury's for instance, still can't get the self service checkouts right, even for basic 'using own bag'. Try NatWest's automated teller in the branch here in Newbury. Your card goes in the slot one way round and you pay in cheques inserted the other! Complain and you are told 'but it's obvious'.

[Biker1]

I suspected your sarcasm emulates that of GWR's attitude to its customers, which explains a lot.

Not at all!
Just seemed to me ironic that the design was altered as a result of input from passengers which your comment seemed to contradict.
Never mind, you'll be able to print your own soon or even maybe "touch in" like on TFL.
As for GWR's attitude to it's customers, I suspect this may generate some sarcasm of your own!!

[Andy Capp]

Not at all!
Just seemed to me ironic that the design was altered as a result of input from passengers which your comment seemed to contradict.
Never mind, you'll be able to print your own soon or even maybe "touch in" like on TFL.
As for GWR's attitude to it's customers, I suspect this may generate some sarcasm of your own!!

I'd like to know what the complaint was and whether the results were an improvement. What is for sure is the box office ticket is way easier to read.

[Biker1]

I'd like to know what the complaint was and whether the results were an improvement. What is for sure is the box office ticket is way easier to read.

Link

[Andy Capp]

Link

I'm sorry but the vending ticket is one big fail. It is nowhere near the suggested design; the font is smaller and the ticket less clear.

[Andy Capp]

What a shock! I suppose I'll just have to guess!



Waste of space service!

[TallDarkAndHands...]

What a shock! I suppose I'll just have to guess!



Waste of space service!

What else do you expect? I was told by a GWR staff member today that spending money on Newbury Train station was a "waste of money".

[Exhausted]

What else do you expect? I was told by a GWR staff member today that spending money on Newbury Train station was a "waste of money".

He would know of course.

[Biker1]

He would know of course.

Or she!

[Andy Capp]

More great service from our 3rd world rail service:

On Saturday I check the GWR App to see there's a bus replacement on Sunday around 09:15 from Thatcham. Come Sunday morning the app doesn't work (again). Get to Thatcham station in plenty of time and around 09:30 I begin to get that concerned feeling. Fortunately for me an acquaintance has a slightly more reliable app it seems and informs me the bus has been cancelled; next train is an hour away. Brilliant! Which means I won't get to London at the time wanted by some margin. Good job I thumbed as much pish out as I could before I left the house!

Tonight I get on the Plymouth train and the aircon is up the spout; bleeding stunk of sweat in there!

[TallDarkAndHands...]

More great service from our 3rd world rail service:

On Saturday I check the GWR App to see there's a bus replacement on Sunday around 09:15 from Thatcham. Come Sunday morning the app doesn't work (again). Get to Thatcham station in plenty of time and around 09:30 I begin to get that concerned feeling. Fortunately for me an equantance has a slightly more reliable app it seems and informs me the bus has been cancelled; next train is an hour away. Brilliant! Which means I won't get to London at the time wanted by some margin. Good job I thumbed as much pish out as I could before I left the house!

Tonight I get on the Plymouth train and the aircon is up the spout; bleeding stunk of sweat in there!

You were lucky. My train was cancelled due to no train crew and the next one was 20 mins late and no air con either. Then missed my connection at Reading. Useless.

[Simon Kirby]

Useless.

Yet the cost of running the railways has more than doubled in real-terms since privatisation, and all but one of the private train operators receive more in subsidies than they return in franchise payments.

If the state is paying the private rail operators so much public money and the service is still as you say so useless, let's nationalise it and do a better job.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Yet the cost of running the railways has more than doubled in real-terms since privatisation, and all but one of the private train operators receive more in subsidies than they return in franchise payments.

If the state is paying the private rail operators so much public money and the service is still as you say so useless, let's nationalise it and do a better job.

I agree with Nationalisation of the Railways but ONLY if the Unions guaranteed a service Monday to Friday and reserved any strike action for weekends. If not I fear the worst.

[Andy Capp]

I agree with Nationalisation of the Railways but ONLY if the Unions guaranteed a service Monday to Friday and reserved any strike action for weekends. If not I fear the worst.

I agree.

[Andy Capp]

Another miserable evening trying to get home on our retarded train service. All delayed, no information and no one knows anything and last second platform alterations!!!

Oh and GWR have changed the app to make it completely useless as well.

[Andy Capp]

And another miserable day at Reading station not knowing when trains will appear and an app whose most effective freature is looking green.

It must be the wrong sort of sun.

[On the edge]

And another miserable day at Reading station not knowing when trains will appear and an app whose most effective freature is looking green.

It must be the wrong sort of sun.

Umm, try using buses in Newbury, situation far worse. It seems we 'don't do' service technology in the UK anymore.

[Turin Machine]

It's ok, just write to 'jeremy will fix it!'. Job done.

[On the edge]

It's ok, just write to 'jeremy will fix it!'. Job done.

That's just the point, he can't. It's all about attitude, and round here at least the problems with public transport are really down to that; attitude. What ever your politics.

[Biker1]

And another miserable day at Reading station not knowing when trains will appear and an app whose most effective freature is looking green.

It must be the wrong sort of sun.

Much of the disruption on our line yesterday were caused by the failure of a freight train between Bedwyn and Hungerford.
The failed train in question was operated by DB Cargo UK........a division of German Sate Railways (Deutsche Bahn)!

[je suis Charlie]

That's just the point, he can't. It's all about attitude, and round here at least the problems with public transport are really down to that; attitude. What ever your politics.

Yeah, right, so it's 'attitude' that caused the breakdown of a freight train. Right.

[Andy Capp]

Much of the disruption on our line yesterday were caused by the failure of a freight train between Bedwyn and Hungerford.
The failed train in question was operated by DB Cargo UK........a division of German Sate Railways (Deutsche Bahn)!

What country is responsible for the GWR app downgrade!

[Biker1]

What country is responsible for the GWR app downgrade!

???
Who knows?
The www is what it says - world wide.
I would imagine GWR would be immediately responsible (that is if it is not your phone or network) which is part of First Group, so I would say the UK, but not being an avid "app" user I wouldn't really know?

Oh yes that reminds me, as an aside, how's the all singing, all dancing Thatcham Crossing "app" working out?

[Simon Kirby]

Yeah, right, so it's 'attitude' that caused the breakdown of a freight train. Right.

Well yes, it is, in the same way as it's attitude that pretty much guarantees that civil aircraft don't tall out of the sky for lack of maintenance. We take an attitude to the maintenance of rolling stock that accepts failures, but it could be engineered otherwise - though there's a cost and a proportionate approach will be to accept some level of breakdowns.

[je suis Charlie]

Well yes, it is, in the same way as it's attitude that pretty much guarantees that civil aircraft don't tall out of the sky for lack of maintenance. We take an attitude to the maintenance of rolling stock that accepts failures, but it could be engineered otherwise - though there's a cost and a proportionate approach will be to accept some level of breakdowns.

Still, when is completely​ borked (I mean nationalised) that won't be a problem will it? Oh, and planes do still have failures, even with all the systems redundancy you can throw at them you can't ever rule out total failure.

[On the edge]

Much of the disruption on our line yesterday were caused by the failure of a freight train between Bedwyn and Hungerford.
The failed train in question was operated by DB Cargo UK........a division of German Sate Railways (Deutsche Bahn)!

Actually proves the point old boy! Why on earth would the German State railway service want a slice of private enterprise UK? Is it not just to extract as much cash as they can to support their own? One thiing is certain, it's not for customer service!

[On the edge]

Still, when is completely​ borked (I mean nationalised) that won't be a problem will it? Oh, and planes do still have failures, even with all the systems redundancy you can throw at them you can't ever rule out total failure.

Quite right BUT you can change attitudes. Moderating tooth and claw capitalisim does not necessarily mean centralised bureacracy. There are other models, John Lewis doesn't have strikes and its staff don't have 'railway' attitudes.

[je suis Charlie]

Quite right BUT you can change attitudes. Moderating tooth and claw capitalisim does not necessarily mean centralised bureacracy. There are other models, John Lewis doesn't have strikes and its staff don't have 'railway' attitudes.

Onward​ comrades, Seize the means of production, hunt down the running dogs of capitalism! To the post office! Onwards to a bright and golden world free of capitalist landlords and wreckers. Pure comedy gold 😂

[je suis Charlie]

Oh, and, Diane Abbott. 😂😂😂

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Oh, and, Diane Abbott. 😂😂😂

If you dont vote Labour you are racist. Or a homophobic. Or a war monger. Or you hate Europe. Scum tories. Power to the people!!!! I want 10 trillion spent on stuff. Nationalise it all. £30 per hour minimum wage. Im with the elite like Gary and Lilly. They are shining examples to all. Lets do this.👍. Ohhhhh Jeremy Corbyn....
And lets get rid of the nuclear weapons. And withdraw from Nato. And tell the USA we dont like them. And disband the Commonwealth. And get rid of the Royal family. Leeches. And give the Scots more money. The Barnett formula is floored. English and Welsh people should all pay a direct paye tax to scottish folk. Love u jezza. 😂

[newres]

If you dont vote Labour you are racist. Or a homophobic. Or a war monger. Or you hate Europe. Scum tories. Power to the people!!!! I want 10 trillion spent on stuff. Nationalise it all. £30 per hour minimum wage. Im with the elite like Gary and Lilly. They are shining examples to all. Lets do this.👍. Ohhhhh Jeremy Corbyn....
And lets get rid of the nuclear weapons. And withdraw from Nato. And tell the USA we dont like them. And disband the Commonwealth. And get rid of the Royal family. Leeches. And give the Scots more money. The Barnett formula is floored. English and Welsh people should all pay a direct paye tax to scottish folk. Love u jezza. 😂

A convert!! Welcome brother.

[je suis Charlie]

There is a letter in the telegraph today, and I paraphrase, "if you're rightist the left are misguided, if you're a leftist the right are 'evil'. Pretty acute observation I thought. Something to do with their view of themselves as being morally and intellectually 'elite'. Why is it though that whenever any riots are shown it's always a leftist 'protest' ?

[TallDarkAndHands...]

There is a letter in the telegraph today, and I paraphrase, "if you're rightist the left are misguided, if you're a leftist the right are 'evil'. Pretty acute observation I thought. Something to do with their view of themselves as being morally and intellectually 'elite'. Why is it though that whenever any riots are shown it's always a leftist 'protest' ?

The same reason all "hate" crimes are commited by white folk. White scum. Get them outta the Country.

[Turin Machine]

The same reason all "hate" crimes are commited by white folk. White scum. Get them outta the Country.

can't agree more. Filthy Christians!!

[TallDarkAndHands...]

can't agree more. Filthy Christians!!

Its Ok to kill Christians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/egyp...6100440001.html

Note. Aljazeera not Daily Fail to all you apologists.
I blame May. And Brexit.

Vote JC. The second coming!!! He will protect us!!!!!

[je suis Charlie]

Its Ok to kill Christians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/egyp...6100440001.html

Note. Aljazeera not Daily Fail to all you apologists.
I blame May. And Brexit.

Vote JC. The second coming!!! He will protect us!!!!!

what do they expect, Christians? another target for the islington Elite.

[je suis Charlie]

what do they expect, Christians? another target for the islington Elite.

Just been online for the wife, @ "Burkas are us" gotta blend in now.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Just been online for the wife, @ "Burkas are us" gotta blend in now.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-...of-isis-w459094

😂

[je suis Charlie]

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-...of-isis-w459094

😂

That's racist! Christian dog! Beheadings will continue until the true faith is acknowledged.

[Simon Kirby]

Why is it though that whenever any riots are shown it's always a leftist 'protest' ?

Because it's not, not always. The terms "left" and "right" originated in the French Revolution when the King's men took to sitting in the National Assembly on the president's right with the revolutionaries on the left, and the usage has sort of stuck with leftist broadly meaning supportive of social justice and the privileged reactionary establishment being rightist.

So for example in the Peterloo Massacre where the local magistrate ordered a cavalry charge, the crowd could reasonably be described as leftist as they were protesting against the social injustice of an unrepresentative parliament that had passed corn laws to protect the interests of the landed parliamentarians regardless of the suffering of ordinary people, and the establishment that suppressed the protest with such barbarity was also very much rightist.

There are plenty of examples of riots that fit this pattern of an injured under-class protesting against an unjust establishment where the leftist-rightist appellations make sense, but there are plenty of counter-examples too such as the 2011 riots and the Millwall-Luton FA Cup tie where they're meaningless.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

That's racist! Christian dog! Beheadings will continue until the true faith is acknowledged.

And from a BBC producer from the same faith... Guess shes gonna be looking over her shoulder for the rest of her life. Hope she has some protection. She's a dead woman walking. But hey if she does get murdered its her own fault. #prayfor... What a cr@p hashtag. Platitudes feom people who want to join in with the "group" hug. #wataloadofold****

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Duplicate

[On the edge]

Good afternoon up the Lodge was it boys? Don't tell me RB is like 'our Judith' and seriously concerned about the growth on the peoples party round here?

Still, it's something both shades of blue agree on; they don't want Labour b******** up their democracy.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Good afternoon up the Lodge was it boys? Don't tell me RB is like 'our Judith' and seriously concerned about the growth on the peoples party round here?

Still, it's something both shades of blue agree on; they don't want Labour b******** up their democracy.

I don't like Benyon. I think he is a D1ck.

[On the edge]

I don't like Benyon. I think he is a D1ck.

I know, irritating isn't it! As far as I can make out, the local kippers had a bit of trouble filling in the forms; it meant reading and writing. Might have to swallow your pride and do what they say then!

[Biker1]

Wow! This must be the best example of a straying thread I have seen on here for some time!!

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Wow! This must be the best example of a straying thread I have seen on here for some time!!

Yep! I see Abbotts on Marr in a minute. Should be good for a laugh. Comedy gold.

[Biker1]

Yep! I see Abbotts on Marr in a minute. Should be good for a laugh. Comedy gold.

She must be a glutton for punishment!

[je suis Charlie]

Diane Abbott. 😵😂

[je suis Charlie]

She must be a glutton!

🐷

[newres]

She must be a glutton for punishment!

She can't be any more of a disaster than May on Andrew Neil. TM looks lost at sea.

[je suis Charlie]

Diane Abbott, bombs, bullets and hair curlers. 😂😂😂

[TallDarkAndHands...]

She can't be any more of a disaster than May on Andrew Neil. TM looks lost at sea.

Where as Abbott who has been "accused" of being a racist did not want bin ladens mob banned. Still thats ok as she used to have an afro when she said that. They need to get rid of Abbott. They WOULD win without. Will cost Labour a million votes.

[je suis Charlie]

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us.". Said the shadow home Secretary. Still think labour is a safe pair of hands?

[On the edge]

"Every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us.". Said the shadow home Secretary. Still think labour is a safe pair of hands?

No worries, there's nothing left of the British State since the Tories sold it off.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

No worries, there's nothing left of the British State since the Tories sold it off.

Thats ok then. Lets give up. You are part of the problem chap. Constantly talking the Country down.

[Biker1]

She can't be any more of a disaster than May on Andrew Neil. TM looks lost at sea.

Oh yes she can!!
(And I'm no particular fan of May.)

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Oh yes she can!!
(And I'm no particular fan of May.)

Worst prospective cabinet member in history.
And Corbyn sh@gged it.😂

[On the edge]

Thats ok then. Lets give up. You are part of the problem chap. Constantly talking the Country down.

You've clearly forgotten what to do when you see an Emperor with no clothes!

But remember, I voted out, so I'm thick; so perhaps you'd be better placed to explain your take on our national economic wellbeing?

[TallDarkAndHands...]

You've clearly forgotten what to do when you see an Emperor with no clothes!

But remember, I voted out, so I'm thick; so perhaps you'd be better placed to explain your take on our national economic wellbeing?

I'm not. Anyone who thinks they are are wrong. All you can do is your best. The IFS are very critical of both the Tories manifesto (uncosted) and Labours (costed but based on fantasy). As for an emperor with no clothes... U have not seem me in my mankini. Yeah baby!!!

[newres]

Obviously it's not a presidential campaign but May has done herself no favours by running scared of the public and Corbyn. She's robotic in her answers and lacks any charisma at all.

Meanwhile Corbyn is challenging, dynamic and radical. I'm not keen on the corporation tax changes and I'm not keen on the excesses of the welfare state but on balance I think our country will be safer and I want a leader that will put our country and its people first.

Economy wise we're in a tricky and unusual situation because a left wing Labour government that takes a more pragmatic approach to leaving the EU will do far less harm than a hard Brexit. Corbyn is the lesser of two evils.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Obviously it's not a presidential campaign but May has done herself no favours by running scared of the public and Corbyn. She's robotic in her answers and lacks any charisma at all.

Meanwhile Corbyn is challenging, dynamic and radical. I'm not keen on the corporation tax changes and I'm not keen on the excesses of the welfare state but on balance I think our country will be safer and I want a leader that will put our country and its people first.

Economy wise we're in a tricky and unusual situation because a left wing Labour government that takes a more pragmatic approach to leaving the EU will do far less harm than a hard Brexit. Corbyn is the lesser of two evils.

Its not juat Corbyn though. Its Abbott. And her momentum ilk. Boring May or dangerous Corbyn. Dont cry over spilt milk when Corbtn has trashed the Country. YOU will have voted for him. 😂

[On the edge]

Its not juat Corbyn though. Its Abbott. And her momentum ilk. Boring May or dangerous Corbyn. Dont cry over spilt milk when Corbtn has trashed the Country. YOU will have voted for him. 😂

But I'm not voting for Corbyn or Abbott. I know this is a presidential election, but I'm voting for the Labour Party, who, in spite of its issues, is much bigger than those two. From their manifesto, in my view, it's probably the only hope.

As to the state of the Country; when our education system is now right down in the international tables, our kids have given up hope of buying a decent home for themselves, let alone being able to clear the huge loan for the liberal arts degree because they haven't access to 'head office' type jobs, and those coming up for retirement wondering if their pension scheme will even be around. Hearing about the collapse of our much vaunted health care system and the abysmal state of our roads. Then finding we no longer own the physical water, airport, electricity and gas infrastructures because like our national commercial icons like Cadbury and Weetabix, they are in foreign hands. And Sir Phil is still floating round the Med! I'd say Corbyn couldn't do much worse.

[Simon Kirby]

Obviously it's not a presidential campaign but May has done herself no favours by running scared of the public and Corbyn. She's robotic in her answers and lacks any charisma at all.

Meanwhile Corbyn is challenging, dynamic and radical. I'm not keen on the corporation tax changes and I'm not keen on the excesses of the welfare state but on balance I think our country will be safer and I want a leader that will put our country and its people first.

Economy wise we're in a tricky and unusual situation because a left wing Labour government that takes a more pragmatic approach to leaving the EU will do far less harm than a hard Brexit. Corbyn is the lesser of two evils.

I'm pretty comfortable with the changes to corporation tax. It's much lower in the UK than in most of Europe and I'd be happy for corporations to pay their way - the Irish economic model with low corporation tax went disastrously wrong and I'd prefer to avoid a similar bubble.

I don't trust May over Brexit. Here priority will be to support big business and I'd prefer to negotiate an exit that works best for normal people.

[newres]

I'm pretty comfortable with the changes to corporation tax. It's much lower in the UK than in most of Europe and I'd be happy for corporations to pay their way - the Irish economic model with low corporation tax went disastrously wrong and I'd prefer to avoid a similar bubble.

I don't trust May over Brexit. Here priority will be to support big business and I'd prefer to negotiate an exit that works best for normal people.

Then I guess you're not paying them. I'm uncomfortable because I am. It will rise to 23% but in addition I have to pay tax on dividends so it's paid twice. Add to that the burden of workplace pensions and there is a large load on small businesses yet Corbyn implies that we don't pay our share.

Some of his views are "them and us". Very 70s. Why not just put income tax up then everyone pays?

[je suis Charlie]

Then I guess you're not paying them. I'm uncomfortable because I am. It will rise to 23% but in addition I have to pay tax on dividends so it's paid twice. Add to that the burden of workplace pensions and there is a large load on small businesses yet Corbyn implies that we don't pay our share.

Some of his views are "them and us". Very 70s. Why not just put income tax up then everyone pays?

Pressure on small businesses has never been greater. And Corbyn will make it worse for people like you. Just give up, go on the role, wear an "I love terrorists" badge and milk the state as hard as you can. Everyone else will, and when we're all scouring the rubbish tip for fuel and the monies all gone and the country is bankrupt, don't be surprised if the hated reviled right get another chance. More austerity, but at least you can start a new business. Good luck.

[On the edge]

Pressure on small businesses has never been greater. And Corbyn will make it worse for people like you. Just give up, go on the role, wear an "I love terrorists" badge and milk the state as hard as you can. Everyone else will, and when we're all scouring the rubbish tip for fuel and the monies all gone and the country is bankrupt, don't be surprised if the hated reviled right get another chance. More austerity, but at least you can start a new business. Good luck.

Rather interesting this. It's arguably the Tory arms dealers who live terrorists, unloading weapons to some very unsavoury regimes all in the interests of world peace of course. Then, as to milking the State, yes people do that, the dreadful Mrs Miggins and her ilk getting a few grand by fraudulent claims. Pales into insignificance against what the Bankers have leeched out of the exchequer! And what did we do about them? Throw them in jug and deduct it from future benefit payments? Nah, we doshed up even more and still they get stupendous bonuses.

Yes, even now there are people scrubbing around for food, in Newbury, rich, wealthy Newbury, there is a very active Food Bank.

Small businesses? Our Tory chums have done a great deal for them haven't they? Those wonderful bankers had to be almost forced to start lending again. Then, my oh my, we uncover a scam, initially denied by the bank that was actually bankrupting these people.

If that's what strong and stable Government brings; I'll take my chance on the tip!