First bankers, now cars makers Options

[Andy Capp]

In this alleged free market economy, people should be going to gaol.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34322016

[motormad]

Before anyone ****** about car tax going up our taxation system is based on co2 not nox.

[Simon Kirby]

Before anyone ****** about car tax going up our taxation system is based on co2 not nox.

No, you were right.

As a result the German company tricked the Environmental Protection Agency into believing its cars met legal standards on the emission of nitrogen oxides when in fact they did not. When used on the road, rather than in the manipulated tests, the cars could give out emissions of as much as 40 times the level set by the standard.

Mind you, I'm pretty sure that the CO2 emissions would increase too or else there'd be no reason for the subterfuge, you'd just leave the "defeat device" enabled and everyone would be happy.

[motormad]

Mind you, I'm pretty sure that the CO2 emissions would increase too or else there'd be no reason for the subterfuge, you'd just leave the "defeat device" enabled and everyone would be happy.

Not quite.
Firstly there is no defeat device. Again, media talking poopie!! It's built into subroutines in the ECU.


random ramble

I am not an ECU specialist but I like to get involved and my own diesel is running a lot of extra bits, it's not my first foray into diesel ECU's. I am familiar with the process and routines built into the older edc15 ECU's built into the "PD" engined diesel cars (these are pretty easy to map).
The "defeat device" is simply, in laymans terms, a logic script that says "if this -> do this". Now on the EDC15 there isn't really much in terms of this, you basically have timing/advance, soi (start of injection), duration (the amount of degrees the injectors would inject a determined value of fuel know as the iq (injection quantity), as they were driven from the camshaft) and a few other parts, not to mention boost control, EGR cycles and such like. They were produced in a time when diesels weren't mandated with DPF filters so they had relatively free-go on what to do.

I know a lot less about the more "modern" ECU's (my car is a Common Rail 170 VW TDI) fitted with the EDC17 ECU. There are no really financially viable "home" ecu read cables or software to actually edit this software so I am reliant on what my tuner (the UK's #1 VAG diesel tuning outfit) are willing to share with me and guesstimation based on my previous experience. But I know there are over 10,000 subtables on basic engine duties alone before you start to get into advanced routines outside of basic engine functions. The even newer Common Rail stuff fitted to the US spec cars that may have Ad-Blue and what not, it would not surprise me if there were 75k programmable routines on the newest engines, so you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Probably something along the lines of, if the ESP/ABS is disabled, and only the front/driven wheels are turning and acceleration is slow with less than X percent throttle input, do <this> within the combustion cycle to minimise NOX output.

The issue, which the news are not reporting on, is not in relation to carbon emissions, it's in relation to NOX emissions.
Very different kettle of fish.
NOX is a by-product of diesel combustion and is neutralised, in some lorries and big mercedes diesels now, with the use of a urea-based post-combustion clean up, industry dubbed "ad-blue" (it's basically fish wee).

This is what is "up to 40x higher"
It does not mean a car emitting 120g/km of CO2 is now producing 4.8kilos of the stuff per KM
This is where media outlets need to take a step back and actually report on the facts

Now, let's break it down

as an owner of a VW this doesn't really effect anyone at all. You bought the car for it's performance, fuel economy, looks, price, whatever.
You didn't buy it because of EPA (american emissions people) compliance, this was probably in the minds of 0.00001% of the buyers.
In the UK some of us care about car tax (call it VED if you want, it's car tax to us normal blokes) so may purchase a car with that in mind.
NOX emissions isn't necessarily related to CO2 output.

And as said NOX is not measured in the UK emissions test so will not effect any of us really, let's be honest.
I doubt there will be any major pressure, the news has been so dry lately because no-one has been bombing the middle east and ISIS have sort of slipped through the cracks, and no more immigrants are migrating from Syria, that they are making it into a HUGE deal when it really isn't a big deal whatsoever.


Andy - I'm disappointed to hear you are surprised that VW did this
Especially in the US. US diesel car sales are WAY under 5% of total vehicle sales. Yes, they may have sold 11m world wide. Only a very small number of these are actually in America and actually fall under this fault. i believe it's around 500,000.
much smaller than any other sort of recall for examples Priuses BRAKES NOT WORKING (more important)

I'm not surprised at all. You have to remember that no matter what an engineer can do there is not free reign to do what they want. EVERYTHING is a compromise in a mass production car. Bean counters and financial people at the end of the day are faced with the following scenario to meet ever stringent (and perhaps too much so) US laws brought in suddenly, mainly to discourage the sale of diesel vehicles


Design a WHOLE new engine at great cost and expense for a small market (US <5% of all cars are diesel, Eurozone it's more like 50%)
OR
Make the engine less powerful/less reliable/less economical in order to meet emissions standard
OR
Program the ECU to pass the test scenario to meet emissions standards.

option 3 is a no brainer really.

You are acting like they have frauded billions from peoples pockets when really all they've done is cheat on one test.
I am not saying that VW didn't do anything wrong. They clearly did. I just think the whole "SCANDAL" headlights are stupid.

VW are not going to be fined $18bn - the largest ENVIRONMENTAL (important bit) fine in US history was $18.7bn from BP about the oil spill - there is no "cleanup" needed. No baby ducks were hurt. No big black oil slick floating randomly across the ocean.

VW are not going to become bankrupt - they own skoda, vw, audi, seat, porsche, bugatti, lamborghini, and bentley. Only very recently they also had a 20% stake in Suzuki and they also own Ducati Motorcycles, and MAN/SCANIA trucks (I only know the trucks because of a client at work who repairs them). It is simply not possible for a company of that size to become bankrupt with so many brands.

The only people who will be sueing VW over "loss of value of their vehicles" or any other absolutely bizzare reason are idiot american art-hards who want to try and make a quick buck to buy their next cheeseburger.

Big hoo-har over nothing if you ask me!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Simon Kirby]

Not quite.
Firstly there is no defeat device. Again, media talking poopie!! It's built into subroutines in the ECU.


random ramble

I am not an ECU specialist but I like to get involved and my own diesel is running a lot of extra bits, it's not my first foray into diesel ECU's. I am familiar with the process and routines built into the older edc15 ECU's built into the "PD" engined diesel cars (these are pretty easy to map).
The "defeat device" is simply, in laymans terms, a logic script that says "if this -> do this". Now on the EDC15 there isn't really much in terms of this, you basically have timing/advance, soi (start of injection), duration (the amount of degrees the injectors would inject a determined value of fuel know as the iq (injection quantity), as they were driven from the camshaft) and a few other parts, not to mention boost control, EGR cycles and such like. They were produced in a time when diesels weren't mandated with DPF filters so they had relatively free-go on what to do.

I know a lot less about the more "modern" ECU's (my car is a Common Rail 170 VW TDI) fitted with the EDC17 ECU. There are no really financially viable "home" ecu read cables or software to actually edit this software so I am reliant on what my tuner (the UK's #1 VAG diesel tuning outfit) are willing to share with me and guesstimation based on my previous experience. But I know there are over 10,000 subtables on basic engine duties alone before you start to get into advanced routines outside of basic engine functions. The even newer Common Rail stuff fitted to the US spec cars that may have Ad-Blue and what not, it would not surprise me if there were 75k programmable routines on the newest engines, so you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Probably something along the lines of, if the ESP/ABS is disabled, and only the front/driven wheels are turning and acceleration is slow with less than X percent throttle input, do <this> within the combustion cycle to minimise NOX output.

The issue, which the news are not reporting on, is not in relation to carbon emissions, it's in relation to NOX emissions.
Very different kettle of fish.
NOX is a by-product of diesel combustion and is neutralised, in some lorries and big mercedes diesels now, with the use of a urea-based post-combustion clean up, industry dubbed "ad-blue" (it's basically fish wee).

This is what is "up to 40x higher"
It does not mean a car emitting 120g/km of CO2 is now producing 4.8kilos of the stuff per KM
This is where media outlets need to take a step back and actually report on the facts

Now, let's break it down

as an owner of a VW this doesn't really effect anyone at all. You bought the car for it's performance, fuel economy, looks, price, whatever.
You didn't buy it because of EPA (american emissions people) compliance, this was probably in the minds of 0.00001% of the buyers.
In the UK some of us care about car tax (call it VED if you want, it's car tax to us normal blokes) so may purchase a car with that in mind.
NOX emissions isn't necessarily related to CO2 output.

And as said NOX is not measured in the UK emissions test so will not effect any of us really, let's be honest.
I doubt there will be any major pressure, the news has been so dry lately because no-one has been bombing the middle east and ISIS have sort of slipped through the cracks, and no more immigrants are migrating from Syria, that they are making it into a HUGE deal when it really isn't a big deal whatsoever.


Andy - I'm disappointed to hear you are surprised that VW did this
Especially in the US. US diesel car sales are WAY under 5% of total vehicle sales. Yes, they may have sold 11m world wide. Only a very small number of these are actually in America and actually fall under this fault. i believe it's around 500,000.
much smaller than any other sort of recall for examples Priuses BRAKES NOT WORKING (more important)

I'm not surprised at all. You have to remember that no matter what an engineer can do there is not free reign to do what they want. EVERYTHING is a compromise in a mass production car. Bean counters and financial people at the end of the day are faced with the following scenario to meet ever stringent (and perhaps too much so) US laws brought in suddenly, mainly to discourage the sale of diesel vehicles


Design a WHOLE new engine at great cost and expense for a small market (US <5% of all cars are diesel, Eurozone it's more like 50%)
OR
Make the engine less powerful/less reliable/less economical in order to meet emissions standard
OR
Program the ECU to pass the test scenario to meet emissions standards.

option 3 is a no brainer really.

You are acting like they have frauded billions from peoples pockets when really all they've done is cheat on one test.
I am not saying that VW didn't do anything wrong. They clearly did. I just think the whole "SCANDAL" headlights are stupid.

VW are not going to be fined $18bn - the largest ENVIRONMENTAL (important bit) fine in US history was $18.7bn from BP about the oil spill - there is no "cleanup" needed. No baby ducks were hurt. No big black oil slick floating randomly across the ocean.

VW are not going to become bankrupt - they own skoda, vw, audi, seat, porsche, bugatti, lamborghini, and bentley. Only very recently they also had a 20% stake in Suzuki and they also own Ducati Motorcycles, and MAN/SCANIA trucks (I only know the trucks because of a client at work who repairs them). It is simply not possible for a company of that size to become bankrupt with so many brands.

The only people who will be sueing VW over "loss of value of their vehicles" or any other absolutely bizzare reason are idiot american art-hards who want to try and make a quick buck to buy their next cheeseburger.

Big hoo-har over nothing if you ask me!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all plausible, and I see how jiggering with the amount of ad-blue would affect NOx and ecenomy (you pay for the ad-blue presumably) without having any effect on the CO2, but the reports I was reading and hearing, especially on Radio4 yesterday morning, were talking about the car's power being affected and the enging running hotter and wearing out quicker so it sounded as though the engine management computer and injection timing was also involved, though I acknowledge this might have been a journalistic assumption. Have VW come clean and said specifically what they did or has the engine management computer code been reverse-engineered?