In this alleged free market economy, people should be going to gaol.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34322016

Car manufacturers have always massaged their emissions / consumption data, nothing to see here, move along please.

Annoying though that some VW owners have been getting away with less road tax than they should be paying.
Road tax is now based on emission figures, yes?

Except that the emissions standards and testing are completely different in Europe than over there. Oh and it just isn't VW doing it either. All new diesel engines are Euro 6 compliant.

I love how my diesel spits out red hot soot at high EGTS


I suspect VW are not the only manufacturer to do this. Including on some petrol models.
Note it was a green-"cars are awful" group who discovered it.

And the first head falls into the basket as the head of VW resigns. Could do no less.

Actually, umm....

The cynic in me keeps wondering why the Americans always find its the 'foreign firms' who somehow break their regulations....odd that isn't it.

I understand American firms have been done under similar deals as well.

Of course there's something to see here: this is corporate fraud.

Why? Is your VW not the car it was last week? The fact is that the US regulatory body set VW a test, which they passed, which every manufacturer passed. Its merely VW who have been held up as the whipping boy, just wait to see who else gets caught up in this. Its like an not, just cos its OK now doesn't mean it's OK when it drives down the road.

At first glance though (I'm not that bothered as I don't own any VW shares) it seems quite a wheeze to knowingly adjust software so that it defeats or blocks out any negative results in order to promote the brand and put one over the opposition. A criminal wheeze, but clever all the same.....

I don't have a VW, but that is irrelevant because no, it is not the car I bought, had I bought one. Your MOT analogy is also specious as that is a different matter. That's down to chance where as what VW were doing was purposely misleading its customers and making false claims, and there are rules about that.

Whether or not VW are the only ones (I very much doubt they are) is also irrelevant.

Road Tax?

That seems pretty clear. Integrity isn't a word that's used much in our capitalist society. Given what we see day after day, should we even be surprised any more?

You know what he's referring to don't you?
Car Tax.





Our Vehicle Tax rates are based on CO2 emissions. This current spat is to do with NOx emissions, which is a key measurement in vehicle testing in the US due to it being the major component of smog and their weather being more prone to impact of that pollutant, especially in California etc. They don't like diesel cars. In particular they don't like foreign diesel cars.

The more you read about this the more you feel a certain amount of Schadenfreude initially given that British car manufacturing has been largely knocked out thanks to the vagaries of the EU and British Governments. But then you wake up and realise that this is just another attack by the US lobbyists to protect their home-grown gas-guzzling mega-motor industry.

The US legal system is there to protect US interests at all costs and hinder any foreign competition. It is that blatant. There are many cases of the US legal (you can't say "justice") system heavily penalising foreign companies whilst ignoring (or only giving a slap on the wrists) for US companies doing similar.

This is worse where US companies ignore patents and copyrights from foreign companies.


Car engines have relied on software for many years. Basically, all major manufacturers try their best to fiddle the figures and grab the lion's share of the market and unfortunately it's virtually impossible to meet the EU and US NOx emission standards without very expensive trickery fitted to the engine - which would have the side effect of killing the efficiency and thus fuel consumption. VW are the first to suffer. Others will follow. I wouldn't be surprised if the VW disaster recovery lawyers are working on a plan to deflect the spotlight from them and onto the entire industry within the day.


However the spat with VW is nothing compared to the shenanigans with GM....

Federal prosecutors have agreed to settle a criminal probe into General Motors for concealing an ignition switch defect linked to at least 124 DEATHS. Under the deal, General Motors agreed to pay $900 million as part of a deferred prosecution agreement, but no GM executives will be prosecuted for covering up the deadly defect. The Justice Department’s deal with GM has been widely criticized by consumer advocates and families who lost loved ones.

Clarence Ditlow, head of the Center for Auto Safety, said, "GM killed over 100 people by knowingly putting a defective ignition switch into over 1 million vehicles. … Today, thanks to its lobbyists, GM officials walk off scot-free while its customers are six feet under."

The game here is about NOx which is one of the main toxic components of exhaust fumes. Diesels produce more NOx than petrol due to the higher combustion pressures.

When you hook up a vehicle to the test rig it (the test rig) monitors various parameters via the engine management system and sensors. VW, GM, and several others [probably all] have written a routine into the software that detects when the test kit is hooked up and operates the engine in such a way that NOx emissions are reduced.

NOx is formed by heat and pressure and since turbo diesels a) run hot and generate lots of pressure in the cylinders, they generate more NOx than petrol engines.

Basically reducing NOx increases particulates and vice versa. So, when on test you run the engine in a mode the reduces NOx but will eventually clog up the DPF and Cat. Since the test is short, you can afford to this and then revert to normal operation once the test has finished.

I see, thanks for clearing that up rather than being pedantic about what kind of tax it is.
I am old enough to remember when it was called Road Fund Licence (Tax).

I agree.
I don't think this matters one bit to consumers (it certainly wouldn't bother me).
A lot of cars have lean burn routines written into the ECU


It makes me laugh.

There is a HUGE diesel tuning scene in America.
Mainly for massive American Pickups, Ford F150s, Dodge Rams, and so on.

Nothing seems to be done about these?



Just an easy target.

further to that



Vehicle A = 2012 Jetta SportWagen TDI DSG (LNT), Vehicle B = 2013 Passat TDI DSG (SCR), Vehicle C = 2013 BMW X5 xDrive35d (SCR)

as you can see even the bmw is over on the route 3 test..... no fuss for them!

This is all besides the point. the fact is VW (and I sure others do too) wilfully deceived its customers.

But it's nothing new.

In the '70s when California had stricter emission controls on petrol engines than other states, US manufacturers added a belt-driven air pump to dilute the exhaust emissions and reduce the percentages measured. This was standard practice.

I don't see the furore. Like our MoT test, the US emissions test is only valid at the time of the test. VW-Audi group would appear to have been quite clever in a technological sense producing software to manage this.

Unlike our MOT, diesels in the US are tested for emissions.

How is this really any different from the technology applied to obtaining the best mpg figures for 'standardised' testing?

The biggest (practical) problem for now is misinformation caused by, and whipped up by, the media. This could lead to a review of ved bands for ALL diesel vehicles, lower residuals and higher tax rates on diesel fuel. All unfounded of course but when did the government EVER fail to spot a taxable bandwagon they could jump on?

."If only everything in life was as reliable as an emissions test."

The manufacture was making false claims!!!

Had they published figures that said: we know how to make the emissions better, but at a cost to consumption (as say, a customer option), then fine, but that wasn't the case.

THEY WILFULLY LIED and being nothing new is irrelevant.

DP error.

It was caused by a lying manufacturer who deliberately cheated a test.

Before anyone ****** about car tax going up our taxation system is based on co2 not nox.

Jeez guys, sounds like you need more cowbell!

For now that is, public pressure can be a powerful lobbyist, even if the public is a misinformed ****.

Nobody has wilfully lied.

They have merely installed technology that allows them to pass the US emissions tests and the time the car is being tested.

Only a difference in degree with a change of fuel or additive or an "Italian tune up" prior top an MoT test

The scaremongering in the press is not really relevant in the UK - the only emissions test in the MoT for a diesel is a smoke test (ie can you still see the other side of the garage after revving it).

Again, I don't see it as a major issue. The relevant government has set a standard and the manufacturers then come up with ways to ensure the standard has been met - which it is if the vehicle is under test.

An engine ECU is not a dumb peice of electronic - it is a sophisticated computer. ECUs switch engine maps constantly to achieve the best engine output etc. depending on a large number of factors acting on the vehicle, VW just has an additional map that responds to the vehicle being on test in US

Frankly, the testers haven't been particularly intelligent either - apparently this has been going on for a good time. Surely, the consistent good results must have aroused suspision a lot earlier.

Yes, the manufacturer seems to have knowingly mislead, but why the shocked surprise? After all, even our Tesco has been at it. Then look at the rest of our establishment.

Crocodile tears; we now have what we voted for. When money is King, integrity goes out of the window. If anyone is to blame, it's the audit/testers, who should have been expecting this type of thing.

This is akin to a car dealer selling a car with an MOT but temporarily installed a cat for the test.

If VW didn't lie then they have nothing to worry about, do they.

Of course it is buyer beware, but what this is down to is corporate fraud, that is why it is big news.

Sounds like someone needs a cuddle.

Funny old life. Get an election count wrong, just shrug shoulders. Bankrupt your bank, just retire on a massive pension. Completely reverse what you said to get elected and become a coalition partner, just grin and sing a daft song.

Manipulate a not particularly relevant technical test on a car.......

A point of order: "Completely reverse what you said to get elected and become a coalition partner" is an exaggeration of the fact. "Compromise on a manifesto pledge and become a coalition partner" is fairer I think.

The surprise is the idea that a reputable car manufacturer is prepared to defraud the consumer. The good thing about this event, news worthy or not, is that the public have a choice and power to punish the miscreants.

Surely this is a time to celebrate an exposure of corporate greed? And we can also see how apparent 'quality' can be just a load old guff.


I like Dubs mind, but never really put them above other marques.

I may have misunderstood this, but I believe the difference is that when technology is applied to obtaining the best mpg figures for 'standardized' testing then the car you buy and take home has exactly those same efficiency characteristics as it had when it was tested. The test may not represent real-world driving and so in your everyday driving you may not necessarily get the efficiency that's quoted in the test, but the real-world efficiency you get will be broadly comparable with the real-world efficiency of any other car that scored the same in the standardized test.

What VW have done is cheated the test, and so the real-world efficiency of a VW is going to be worse than the real-world efficiency of another car that got a comparable standardized tests.

It's like employing a job applicant who got a double first in mathematics and Russian from Magdalen. Their real-world skills may not be everything you expect, but all things being equal they will be comparable with any other applicant with the same qualification. What VW have done is sold you a Sociology graduate with a Desmond from Essex.

I haven't read the details so I may be wrong, but I believe that the software switch configures the engine for optimum efficiency, so that minimizes CO2, so although NOx might also change it's the CO2 which is the significant issue here.

No, you were right.



Mind you, I'm pretty sure that the CO2 emissions would increase too or else there'd be no reason for the subterfuge, you'd just leave the "defeat device" enabled and everyone would be happy.

No such thing as reputable these days as paragraph one demonstrates! Adam Smith raw makes life much easier, no surprises. As paragraph one demonstrates. Sure there was a coalition, but they gave up the policy, could have voted with but kept policy for later, that would have been the honourable thing. VW were and are still just as reputable as any of the others. Only thing I'm surprised about is that after our past experiences anyone thinks they are.

What's to celebrate? We find examples and incompetences every day of the week - yet apart from 'being shocked' in reality, all we do is follow the example ourselves more and more. Lovely society we have.

They could have done, but perhaps some fringe parties offer some polices as a form of pressure. In the case of the Lib Dems, they wanted to make Uni as viable to as many as possible, but failing that they helped to install a progressive alternative that made it easier for the less well healed people to go to Uni.

If the Lib Dems draft the policy knowing full-well they couldn't and wouldn't deliver it, then I would agree with you, but a party being naive is not necessarily a sign of being dishonourable.


I'd like to rephrase that with: VW were and are still just as disreputable as any of the others. I like to think I'm not that stupid, but I am actually surprised VW have done what they did.


People can only be people.

Not quite.
Firstly there is no defeat device. Again, media talking poopie!! It's built into subroutines in the ECU.


random ramble

I am not an ECU specialist but I like to get involved and my own diesel is running a lot of extra bits, it's not my first foray into diesel ECU's. I am familiar with the process and routines built into the older edc15 ECU's built into the "PD" engined diesel cars (these are pretty easy to map).
The "defeat device" is simply, in laymans terms, a logic script that says "if this -> do this". Now on the EDC15 there isn't really much in terms of this, you basically have timing/advance, soi (start of injection), duration (the amount of degrees the injectors would inject a determined value of fuel know as the iq (injection quantity), as they were driven from the camshaft) and a few other parts, not to mention boost control, EGR cycles and such like. They were produced in a time when diesels weren't mandated with DPF filters so they had relatively free-go on what to do.

I know a lot less about the more "modern" ECU's (my car is a Common Rail 170 VW TDI) fitted with the EDC17 ECU. There are no really financially viable "home" ecu read cables or software to actually edit this software so I am reliant on what my tuner (the UK's #1 VAG diesel tuning outfit) are willing to share with me and guesstimation based on my previous experience. But I know there are over 10,000 subtables on basic engine duties alone before you start to get into advanced routines outside of basic engine functions. The even newer Common Rail stuff fitted to the US spec cars that may have Ad-Blue and what not, it would not surprise me if there were 75k programmable routines on the newest engines, so you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Probably something along the lines of, if the ESP/ABS is disabled, and only the front/driven wheels are turning and acceleration is slow with less than X percent throttle input, do <this> within the combustion cycle to minimise NOX output.

The issue, which the news are not reporting on, is not in relation to carbon emissions, it's in relation to NOX emissions.
Very different kettle of fish.
NOX is a by-product of diesel combustion and is neutralised, in some lorries and big mercedes diesels now, with the use of a urea-based post-combustion clean up, industry dubbed "ad-blue" (it's basically fish wee).

This is what is "up to 40x higher"
It does not mean a car emitting 120g/km of CO2 is now producing 4.8kilos of the stuff per KM
This is where media outlets need to take a step back and actually report on the facts

Now, let's break it down

as an owner of a VW this doesn't really effect anyone at all. You bought the car for it's performance, fuel economy, looks, price, whatever.
You didn't buy it because of EPA (american emissions people) compliance, this was probably in the minds of 0.00001% of the buyers.
In the UK some of us care about car tax (call it VED if you want, it's car tax to us normal blokes) so may purchase a car with that in mind.
NOX emissions isn't necessarily related to CO2 output.

And as said NOX is not measured in the UK emissions test so will not effect any of us really, let's be honest.
I doubt there will be any major pressure, the news has been so dry lately because no-one has been bombing the middle east and ISIS have sort of slipped through the cracks, and no more immigrants are migrating from Syria, that they are making it into a HUGE deal when it really isn't a big deal whatsoever.


Andy - I'm disappointed to hear you are surprised that VW did this
Especially in the US. US diesel car sales are WAY under 5% of total vehicle sales. Yes, they may have sold 11m world wide. Only a very small number of these are actually in America and actually fall under this fault. i believe it's around 500,000.
much smaller than any other sort of recall for examples Priuses BRAKES NOT WORKING (more important)

I'm not surprised at all. You have to remember that no matter what an engineer can do there is not free reign to do what they want. EVERYTHING is a compromise in a mass production car. Bean counters and financial people at the end of the day are faced with the following scenario to meet ever stringent (and perhaps too much so) US laws brought in suddenly, mainly to discourage the sale of diesel vehicles


Design a WHOLE new engine at great cost and expense for a small market (US <5% of all cars are diesel, Eurozone it's more like 50%)
OR
Make the engine less powerful/less reliable/less economical in order to meet emissions standard
OR
Program the ECU to pass the test scenario to meet emissions standards.

option 3 is a no brainer really.

You are acting like they have frauded billions from peoples pockets when really all they've done is cheat on one test.
I am not saying that VW didn't do anything wrong. They clearly did. I just think the whole "SCANDAL" headlights are stupid.

VW are not going to be fined $18bn - the largest ENVIRONMENTAL (important bit) fine in US history was $18.7bn from BP about the oil spill - there is no "cleanup" needed. No baby ducks were hurt. No big black oil slick floating randomly across the ocean.

VW are not going to become bankrupt - they own skoda, vw, audi, seat, porsche, bugatti, lamborghini, and bentley. Only very recently they also had a 20% stake in Suzuki and they also own Ducati Motorcycles, and MAN/SCANIA trucks (I only know the trucks because of a client at work who repairs them). It is simply not possible for a company of that size to become bankrupt with so many brands.

The only people who will be sueing VW over "loss of value of their vehicles" or any other absolutely bizzare reason are idiot american art-hards who want to try and make a quick buck to buy their next cheeseburger.

Big hoo-har over nothing if you ask me!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me what would have happened had VW not cheated the test in the first place?

The point is trust. VW can't pass the homologation, so are prepared to risk their reputation and hope they get away with by knowingly breaking the law (allegedly). That is what I'm surprised about.



This would be perfectly fine if they then kept the setting after the test. Call it the American Spec Dub.

Err, wrong. The so called cheat device is a sub routine within the engine management system that recognized when it was connected to the analytical machine, this then prompted the engine to supposedly inject additional urea in the downstream catalyst. This had the effect of diminishing the amount of nitric oxide detected by the machine. It in no way affects the amount of CO2 produced.
There is NO problem with the CO2 emissions, only with the oxides.

The reason it went back to normal once disconnected was that otherwise the driver would find his adblue tank emptying in short order.

That's all plausible, and I see how jiggering with the amount of ad-blue would affect NOx and ecenomy (you pay for the ad-blue presumably) without having any effect on the CO2, but the reports I was reading and hearing, especially on Radio4 yesterday morning, were talking about the car's power being affected and the enging running hotter and wearing out quicker so it sounded as though the engine management computer and injection timing was also involved, though I acknowledge this might have been a journalistic assumption. Have VW come clean and said specifically what they did or has the engine management computer code been reverse-engineered?

So the same as tuning a petrol to run more lean to pass emission tests in UK (thus running hotter and wearing valves faster)

I see this as nothing different than a car having a "sport" button (all tests done with sport disabled but most driving done with it enabled) but without the button. In the 70's they pumped air into the exhaust mainifolds with claims about scavenging effect but really as it diluted the exhaust gases to reduce the ppm of Hydrocarbons which california was mandating a max level for.

This time around the US has set unfeasibly low NoX levels as they dont really want diesel based cars (pickups come under different rules) particularly non US ones, so to meet the near impossible in the real world tests the car makers have set their ECU to recognise the non-real world scenario and use a non real world mapping.

Only discovered as a US environmental group showed that loads of vehicles didnt hit their claimed figures from the test so investigations started. Personally I think it is indicative of our modern electronic cars, the more efficient we want vehicles to be the more carefully managed combustion has to be and everything comes at a trade off CO2/NOx/reliability/mgp , currently different countries seem to value different bits of that higher yet car manufacturers want to produce the fewest number of engines globally as possible

"I see this as nothing different than a car having a "sport" button (all tests done with sport disabled but most driving done with it enabled) but without the button." It is like that in so far as mapping, but not the same with the issue in hand.

The issue is corporate integrity: what else are they lying about?

Issue being to do this probably creates poor driving qualities / low power.



That's pretty much it - certain engine conditions can cause increased temperatures which would cause engines to not last as long
There is no official statement/diagnosis as of yet.

you do pay for the ad-blue.
i think these cars which are advertised as 40x the NOX limits didn't even have adblue.

I don't see it as a matter of integrity - i bet the conversation went along the lines of.

Mr VW sales&marketing to Engineer: We need to sell diesels in the US of A

Mr Engineer: They have a silly test designed to stop us flogging diesels over there

Mr S&M: Can't you design a version of the engine to meet the test

Mr Engineer; we could but it wouldnt last as long, give as good mpg or drive as well and it would cost loads to do which we wouldn't make back on the number of units we would sell in that spec

Mr S&M: Damm, can you think of a way around that

Mr Engineer: Well like the flat spot all motorcycle engine engines have at about 2/3 peak power so they beat the noise regs we could program the engine map for the specifics of the test and otherwise leave it as it is in the EU, that would work

Mr S&M: Yeah that sounds like a good idea Hans, go do it


I would also be amazed if it turns out VW group are the only people who do it

^^ completely agree with you sir.