EU fail #1: low CO2 targets and filthy diesels cars Options

[Andy Capp]

My spin, but it's fun.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-34...r-filthier.html

[je suis Charlie]

Oh no! Plagues of locusts oer the earth, world stops spinning, sun explodes, woe is me! Oh, and AC reads the Wail!

[Andy Capp]

Yes I do, but I don't inhale and only the bits I approve of or supports my views!

[blackdog]

Interesting spin - mine would be:

EU attempt to save lives foiled by UK government bungling.

[Biker1]

Interesting spin - mine would be:

EU attempt to save lives foiled by UK government bungling.

OK, but trouble is the EU has no control over the world's worst polluters.

[Andy Capp]

Interesting spin - mine would be:

EU attempt to save lives foiled by UK government bungling.

I'm not sure about that, this is the bit that inspired my headline: The New Labour government decided to do that in the wake of a 1998 EU directive, which compelled Britain to cut CO2 emissions from vehicles by 25 per cent by 2020.

[Turin Machine]

I'm not sure about that, this is the bit that inspired my headline: The New Labour government decided to do that in the wake of a 1998 EU directive, which compelled Britain to cut CO2 emissions from vehicles by 25 per cent by 2020.

But petrol cars are the worst polluters of CO2, so drive a diesel! Ah, see the problem?

[Turin Machine]

Bump!!

VW, up 17% in the states while every one else including the likes of GM are down, static or at best 2% up and what's helping to fuel the rise? Yup, you guessed it, peoples who took vw up on their offer to buy back their nasty products going back into showrooms to buy another. Ask me? They deserve Donald.

[Turin Machine]

Volkswagen said profit at its troubled core division soared in the first three months of the year, first-quarter operating profit at VW's largest division surged to 869 million euros ($948.9 million) from 73 million a year earlier, the carmaker said on Wednesday, group operating profit jumped 40 percent to 4.37 billion euros in the three months to the end of March, one of the carmaker's highest-ever quarterly results. The Wolfsburg-based group expects the 2017 return on sales to come in between 6 and 7 percent, after reaching 6.7 percent in 2016, and group revenue to exceed last year's record 217 billion euros by as much as 4 percent.

[je suis Charlie]

5,
4,
3,
2,
1,

[On the edge]

Volkswagen said profit at its troubled core division soared in the first three months of the year, first-quarter operating profit at VW's largest division surged to 869 million euros ($948.9 million) from 73 million a year earlier, the carmaker said on Wednesday, group operating profit jumped 40 percent to 4.37 billion euros in the three months to the end of March, one of the carmaker's highest-ever quarterly results. The Wolfsburg-based group expects the 2017 return on sales to come in between 6 and 7 percent, after reaching 6.7 percent in 2016, and group revenue to exceed last year's record 217 billion euros by as much as 4 percent.

Was it Lincoln who said you can only govern with the consent of the people.

The public take as much notice of the 'emission figures' as they did of the 'miles per gallon' numbers in years gone by.

[Andy Capp]

Was it Lincoln who said you can only govern with the consent of the people.

The public take as much notice of the 'emission figures' as they did of the 'miles per gallon' numbers in years gone by.

Which is why it is important that mummy is there to hide the matches in a safe place, just in case baby finds them!

[je suis Charlie]

Which is why it is important that mummy is there to hide the matches in a safe place, just in case baby finds them!

It might help if you didn't just bump the keyboard with your forehead.

[On the edge]

Which is why it is important that mummy is there to hide the matches in a safe place, just in case baby finds them!

Yes, quite right; the key is 'in a safe place'!

I must admit, when it comes to this type of failure, which is akin to tax dodging by certain big companies the underlying problem is that the Government (Mummy) has failed to create the right rules and certainly failed to properly manage adherence. i.e. a good example of good adherence is Weights and Measures, their tests (periodically) will include the software and mechanics of the scale they are testing.

[Andy Capp]

That's right: while we have companies that do things like VW did and a load of baying sheep that suck-up their hype, we need an authority to protect us. Sadly we were let down and people are apparently dying because of it.

[newres]

That's right: while we have companies that do things like VW did and a load of baying sheep that suck-up their hype, we need an authority to protect us. Sadly we were let down and people are apparently dying because of it.

We should start seeing less of them post Brexit as people won't be able to afford them.

[Turin Machine]

We should start seeing less of them post Brexit as people won't be able to afford them.

Only poor people old boy, only poor people.

[gel]

Let's not forget Gordon Brown drove this cheered on by the myopic green lobby.

Besides those purchased by private owners, many companies on the CO2
reduction excursion/ green agenda, changed their company car policies overnight.
Their employees with jobs requiring company cars had to accept diesel cars.
And business purchasers were by far the biggest share of the market.

[Berkshirelad]

That's right: while we have companies that do things like VW did and a load of baying sheep that suck-up their hype, we need an authority to protect us. Sadly we were let down and people are apparently dying because of it.

I still don't see that VW has done anything wrong legally.

They were given a set of regulations and testing conditions and optimised their vehicles to that regime.

US manufacturers have been doing it for decades. In California, exhausts emissions are set lower than other states. What did GM. Ford, etc do - simply added an engine-driven air pump to dilute the exhaust gas prior to the tailpipe so that the lower CO percentages were reached. This, of course, didn't change the overall exhaust pollution at all.

[Berkshirelad]

Let's not forget Gordon Brown drove this cheered on by the myopic green lobby.

Besides those purchased by private owners, many companies on the CO2
reduction excursion/ green agenda, changed their company car policies overnight.
Their employees with jobs requiring company cars had to accept diesel cars.
And business purchasers were by far the biggest share of the market.

This whole thing is nothing to do with clean air and saving lives, but just another way of raising revenue.

If diesels were actually so bad, they would be banned altogether on health grounds, but this is not what is happening merely additional tax and all those filthy black cabs, vans, buses, etc get off scot free.

Scrappage makes not a blind bit of difference for me. I have an old (2002) diesel Rover 75 and I am about to retire. Even if the government offered me £5000 scrappage, I still could not afford a new car.

[On the edge]

This whole thing is nothing to do with clean air and saving lives, but just another way of raising revenue.

If diesels were actually so bad, they would be banned altogether on health grounds, but this is not what is happening merely additional tax and all those filthy black cabs, vans, buses, etc get off scot free.

....

Wot; like they've banned smoking!

[Turin Machine]

If they want to save lives, ban tobacco, alcohol and fast food. That's a few hundred thousand lives saved per year.

[James_Trinder]

Even if the government offered me £5000 scrappage, I still could not afford a new car.

That is true but you would be most of the way to a new Dacia at £6000.

[Andy Capp]

I still don't see that VW has done anything wrong legally. They were given a set of regulations and testing conditions and optimised their vehicles to that regime.

There's a thing called lying by omission, but if VW did nothing wrong, I'm surprised they are willing to spend so much money 'rectifying' the issue.

[Andy Capp]

If they want to save lives, ban tobacco, alcohol and fast food. That's a few hundred thousand lives saved per year.

Quite, but then what would the poor and unintelligent people do with their day.

[Andy Capp]

...spend all their time on here complaining about things, probably.

[Berkshirelad]

That is true but you would be most of the way to a new Dacia at £6000.

maybe, but they don't offer a hybrid or electric version at anywhere like £6000

[On the edge]

Quite, but then what would the poor and unintelligent people do with their day.

LibDems missed a trick, this is allegedly the core Brexit vote!

[Biker1]

If they want to save lives, ban tobacco, alcohol and fast food. That's a few hundred thousand lives saved per year.

In addition to that don't take the train, they have nasty diesel engines too. In fact the HST's have German ones!
Oh and don't buy all those goods in the supermarkets, nasty diesel lorries bring them.
Oh and don't expect cheap consumer goods from the Far East, they come in diesel powered ships.
For the same reason don't book that cruise.
Can't take the bus either because guess what.......
Come to think of it how much NOX does a plane pump out? Better be safe and cancel that holiday / business trip.
And think of all the money saved not building that extra runway at Heathrow.
No, the only way to get about is to drive a nice, environment friendly petrol car that pumps out perfumed fresh air!

[Andy Capp]

In addition to that don't take the train, they have nasty diesel engines too. In fact the HST's have German ones!
Oh and don't buy all those goods in the supermarkets, nasty diesel lorries bring them.
Oh and don't expect cheap consumer goods from the Far East, they come in diesel powered ships.
For the same reason don't book that cruise.
Can't take the bus either because guess what.......
Come to think of it how much NOX does a plane pump out? Better be safe and cancel that holiday / business trip.
And think of all the money saved not building that extra runway at Heathrow.
No, the only way to get about is to drive a nice, environment friendly petrol car that pumps out perfumed fresh air!

Once we're out of the EU we will be able to go round dumping NOx at our leisure.

[je suis Charlie]

Once we're out of the EU we will be able to go round dumping NOx at our leisure.

Oh, if you insist!

[Simon Kirby]

Once we're out of the EU we will be able to go round dumping NOx at our leisure.

There won't be any of those new-fangled Diesel engines once we've taken back control and all the nasty foreigners have taken their horrid foreign technology with them - it'll be back to good old-fashioned British engineering for everyone...

[je suis Charlie]

Too techy for me, I'm saving up for a nice Ford pilot V8. Latest fing round here, gonna be a babe magnet, flat head, side valves, all in a tasteful black. Gonna bling it up with some 12" rimz an a nice nickle rad cap wiv dat whirly fing Inna middle. Gonna be totally cool man, might save up n buy some of dem wicked whitewall tyres for it. 'S gonna be like so totally Bonnie n Clyde, make yer eyes pop n dat!

[On the edge]

There won't be any of those new-fangled Diesel engines once we've taken back control and all the nasty foreigners have taken their horrid foreign technology with them - it'll be back to good old-fashioned British engineering for everyone...

This, for me, encapsulates the biggest, and to be honest, only real problem with us leaving Europe. We simply don't have the innovative or managerial competence to survive on our own, if ever we did.

Our survival in Europe, once we'd spent the cash we got from 'selling the farm' was as Europe's low wage, bang it together zone.

Where now?

[Andy Capp]

This, for me, encapsulates the biggest, and to be honest, only real problem with us leaving Europe. We simply don't have the innovative or managerial competence to survive on our own, if ever we did.

Our survival in Europe, once we'd spent the cash we got from 'selling the farm' was as Europe's low wage, bang it together zone.

Where now?

More the same, except we have the illusion of being in control that the Monster Raving Tories can exploit.

[On the edge]

More the same, except we have the illusion of being in control that the Monster Raving Tories can exploit.

Yes, that seems to be the reality. Ironic, because if we'd stayed in, the EU was likely to have had another 'Greece' on its hands in a decade or so. Coming out, they'll have the advantage of a low wage area to exploit; without the worry. Triples all round

[je suis Charlie]

More the same, except we have the illusion of being in control that the Monster Raving Tories can exploit.

Keyboard, meet forehead. Forehead? Meet keyboard.

[Berkshirelad]

There won't be any of those new-fangled Diesel engines once we've taken back control and all the nasty foreigners have taken their horrid foreign technology with them - it'll be back to good old-fashioned British engineering for everyone...

Oi!

There was nothing wrong with the Morris Marina/Ital...








....that couldn't be sorted out with 5 gallons of petrol and a match...

[je suis Charlie]

This, for me, encapsulates the biggest, and to be honest, only real problem with us leaving Europe. We simply don't have the innovative or managerial competence to survive on our own, if ever we did.

I loved this,. I think Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee would love the irony of this complaint written on the internet.

[Turin Machine]

I loved this,. I think Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee would love the irony of this complaint written on the internet.

One presumes he wrote it using a computer (or similar device) so Charles Babbage might wish to weigh in as well. 👦

[Andy Capp]

I loved this,. I think Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee would love the irony of this complaint written on the internet.

Why?

[Turin Machine]

Why?

Perhaps he was thinking of this, "Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee OM KBE FRS FREng FRSA FBCS, also known as TimBL, is an English computer scientist, best known as the inventor of the World Wide Web." (Wiki)

Not the Internet per se but widely acknowledged as being the father of the internet.

[Andy Capp]

Perhaps he was thinking of this, "Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee OM KBE FRS FREng FRSA FBCS, also known as TimBL, is an English computer scientist, best known as the inventor of the World Wide Web." (Wiki)

Not the Internet per se but widely acknowledged as being the father of the internet.

Yes I see that, but I am unsure of the relevance in the argument as the inspiration, finance and support he received was through a multinational initiative, not in his shed in Battersea. CERN is an example of nations working together and not going it alone.

[Turin Machine]

We simply don't have the innovative or managerial competence to survive on our own.

I think he was demonstrating the paucity of the argument re lack of innovative competence and commenting on the irony of it all. Honestly, you can take it or leave it really.

[On the edge]

I loved this,. I think Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee would love the irony of this complaint written on the internet.

Good, a response which graphically illustrates our problems; certainly two of them. And I've taken penicillin. If you can, think about it, but that might just uncover another national problem.

[je suis Charlie]

Good, a response which graphically illustrates our problems; certainly two of them. And I've taken penicillin. If you can, think about it, but that might just uncover another national problem.

Yeah but, don't be too hasty checking your DNA, might be paddling in the shallow end of the gene pool.

[Turin Machine]

Good, a response which graphically illustrates our problems; certainly two of them. And I've taken penicillin. If you can, think about it, but that might just uncover another national problem.

The biggest problem we have is people like you, but not exclusively you, doing nothing but running the country down. The world won't stop spinning when we brexit, neither will countries like Germany want to stop trading. It's all scare stories and doom mongering when we should be looking forward to the future free of the hateful apron strings of people like Jean Claude.

[On the edge]

The biggest problem we have is people like you, but not exclusively you, doing nothing but running the country down. The world won't stop spinning when we brexit, neither will countries like Germany want to stop trading. It's all scare stories and doom mongering when we should be looking forward to the future free of the hateful apron strings of people like Jean Claude.

Oh dead, and I actually voted Brexit! What you don't actually like me telling is the truth. Indeed, for Joe Average on the street, there would have been little difference in or out. For me, Brexit should be an opportunity to show case what we can do, creating the high end 'thinking and directing' jobs in this country, realigning our education system to one producing commercial leaders, rather than middle managers.

So, now perhaps you'll understand that my biggest worry about Brexit, is actually people like you; still stuck in the sterile in/out debate, when we should now be worrying about tomorrow. Or do you just want your kids future to be exactly as it was on track for if we'd stayed in?

Come on, move on and lift your thoughts. As far as we are concerned, Jean Claude is as important as the night club bouncer as you leave the premises.

[On the edge]

Yeah but, don't be too hasty checking your DNA, might be paddling in the shallow end of the gene pool.

Darwin is supposed to have shown that we are all to apes, I'm just hoping I'm not related to you!

[je suis Charlie]

Darwin is supposed to have shown that we are all to apes, I'm just hoping I'm not related to you!

Don't worry, get a pictorial of evolution, about two thirds of the way up the tree splits into three? Got it? Well, the branch in the middle, that's homo sapiens, the branch on the left, that's Neanderthal man, the branch with no leaves on the right? The dead one? That's homo liberalous, that's you.

[Simon Kirby]

Oi!

There was nothing wrong with the Morris Marina/Ital...








....that couldn't be sorted out with 5 gallons of petrol and a match...

[On the edge]

Don't worry, get a pictorial of evolution, about two thirds of the way up the tree splits into three? Got it? Well, the branch in the middle, that's homo sapiens, the branch on the left, that's Neanderthal man, the branch with no leaves on the right? The dead one? That's homo liberalous, that's you.

Aaah yes, it's a different perspective looking up from the bottom of the tree!

[Biker1]

We simply don't have the innovative or managerial competence to survive on our own, if ever we did.

Our survival in Europe, once we'd spent the cash we got from 'selling the farm' was as Europe's low wage, bang it together zone.

Where now?

Well the French government still seem to have a "post Brexit" interest in some of our industries!!
Link

[Andy Capp]

Well the French government still seem to have a "post Brexit" interest in some of our industries!!
Link

The Monster Rabid Tories call it inward investment.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

The Monster Rabid Tories call it inward investment.

The Monster Rabid Tories are going to win huge. Goodbye JC. Goodbye little Timmy. Up yours the Ginger krankie. The people want Brexit. And they want it now. And they are fed up with all the remoaners. If the remoaners love the EU that much may I suggest they move whilst they can and take EU citizenship whatever that is. Personally I'm English and then British. Some others may feel European. They should go if they want to feel at home. After all Juncker thinks the English language is on the way out anyway. The unelected raddled old freeloading soak.

[je suis Charlie]

The Monster Rabid Tories are going to win huge. Goodbye JC. Goodbye little Timmy. Up yours the Ginger krankie. The people want Brexit. And they want it now. And they are fed up with all the remoaners. If the remoaners love the EU that much may I suggest they move whilst they can and take EU citizenship whatever that is. Personally I'm English and then British. Some others may feel European. They should go if they want to feel at home. After all Juncker thinks the English language is on the way out anyway. The raddled old freeloading soak.

Exactly. Boot the p@¥$ head into touch.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/s...862550706769920

Very grown up. Another 1% on the Brexit side. They really don't get the British so they? 😂

[On the edge]

Well the French government still seem to have a "post Brexit" interest in some of our industries!!
Link

Thanks for sharing that Biker, it had passed me by. However it again quite illustrates the path we are on in or out of the EU.

Why would the French nationalised railway want to expand in another Country, spending French public money to do so? For the Remainers amongst us, where is the EU in this? Surely using cheap French public money is anti competitive? Oh, I nearly forgot, the EU supports nationalised industries; EdF being a good example.

In reality the only reason SNCF are doing this is because labour costs are so much cheaper in the UK so they can make a big wodge over here whilst the going is good. Desperately needed because the French pension position is dire - they need the cash.

For us, yeah, we'll get some cheap development cash, but the price our future economy pays is the French management, so the only UK jobs will be the navvie work.

it's not only trains taking us for a ride!

[On the edge]

The Monster Rabid Tories are going to win huge. Goodbye JC. Goodbye little Timmy. Up yours the Ginger krankie. The people want Brexit. And they want it now. And they are fed up with all the remoaners. If the remoaners love the EU that much may I suggest they move whilst they can and take EU citizenship whatever that is. Personally I'm English and then British. Some others may feel European. They should go if they want to feel at home. After all Juncker thinks the English language is on the way out anyway. The unelected raddled old freeloading soak.

Then we now need to be putting enormous pressure on Mrs M to get our trade and industry back. Let's see the city start earning real money for the Country.

[je suis Charlie]

But, but, Jeremy's gonna win! He said it on BBC today! Calling him a liar?

[Andy Capp]

But, but, Jeremy's gonna win! He said it on BBC today! Calling him a liar?

I didn't see any reference to Corbyn, only the lying prime minister.

[je suis Charlie]

Then we now need to be putting enormous pressure on Mrs M to get our trade and industry back. Let's see the city start earning real money for the Country.

Let me spell it out to you, I obviously need to. It won't be 'Mrs M' that we will need to put pressure on when Jeremy is in charge. Now will it! Unless of course he is lying when he said that. But Jeremy wouldn't lie, would he? It's not difficult is it, I know you're a bit challenged but still. Do TRY to keep up with the adults

[On the edge]

Let me spell it out to you, I obviously need to. It won't be 'Mrs M' that we will need to put pressure on when Jeremy is in charge. Now will it! Unless of course he is lying when he said that. But Jeremy wouldn't lie, would he? It's not difficult is it, I know you're a bit challenged but still. Do TRY to keep up with the adults

It's OK, just hold on, East Ham at the moment, next stop and you're there.

[je suis Charlie]

It's OK, just hold on, East Ham at the moment, next stop and you're there.

Yay! Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

[Biker1]

My spin, but it's fun.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-34...r-filthier.html

Counter spin?

[Turin Machine]

Diesel is cleaner now than ever before and is getting cleaner, it also generates less Co2 than petrol, the main benefit however is that government can use it as a cash cow and punish drivers for doing what the government actually told us to do. It's easier to tax motorists than to do something about all the other causes of air pollution all of which would cost more money to address.

[Andy Capp]

Diesel is cleaner now than ever before and is getting cleaner, it also generates less Co2 than petrol, the main benefit however is that government can use it as a cash cow and punish drivers for doing what the government actually told us to do. It's easier to tax motorists than to do something about all the other causes of air pollution all of which would cost more money to address.

Quite. However, we are the 'government'. It is our fault, not theirs, in my view. 'We must' buy cheap stuff and 'we must' fly and drive for pleasure. 'We want' tomatoes all year round, we must have cheap TVs in every room and a decent phone to use while we 'watch' the telly, we MUST eat meat, etc...

[On the edge]

Quite. However, we are the 'government'. It is our fault, not theirs, in my view. 'We must' buy cheap stuff and 'we must' fly and drive for pleasure. 'We want' tomatoes all year round, we must have cheap TVs in every room and a decent phone to use while we 'watch' the telly, we MUST eat meat, etc...

Sadly, after 40 odd years of 'one size fits all' education, we are now conditioned to accept and not question; thus slaves to propoganda. What's good for Tesco etc, is good for us!

[Andy Capp]

Sadly, after 40 odd years of 'one size fits all' education, we are now conditioned to accept and not question; thus slaves to propoganda. What's good for Tesco etc, is good for us!

Notwithstanding sustainability and a lack of your average Joe taking some responsibility for their part in all this. The western world is arrogant and selfish.

[On the edge]

Notwithstanding sustainability and a lack of your average Joe taking some responsibility for their part in all this. The western world is arrogant and selfish.

Totally! And that may well be our eventual downfall.

[Turin Machine]

I see that new research has shown airborne particulates are also being pumped out in massive quantities by petrol engines as well. VW are now going to fit filters on all new petrol engines.

[Biker1]

Is the electric car revolution as "eco friendly" as we are lead to believe.
Seems there is always an environmental / human cost no matter what form of energy we decide to use up!
Link

[SirWilliam]

Totally! And that may well be our eventual downfall.

All "empires" have their day . The Romans, Ottomans , Blackburn Rovers . It is decreed from upon high that complacency is the precursor of decline so accept and get used to eating turnips 3 times a day.

I very much doubt that the electric car is the answer until we develop a generating system that isn't fossil fuel based .

How about a sail on top of your 4x4 ?

[blackdog]

I very much doubt that the electric car is the answer until we develop a generating system that isn't fossil fuel based .

Nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, what more do you want?

[Turin Machine]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-47...Fzen.yandex.com

[SirWilliam]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-47...Fzen.yandex.com

I read this earlier and , though it is hard to stomach , if it was not for this work those children would be earning nothing. How many of the moral high grounder brigade will send enough in aid to alleviate their need ? The same criteria applies to the child sex trade , ivory poaching et cetera .

Market force dictates and will continue to do so and the exploitation of those less fortunate will follow . The man who has a penny can buy something costing a penny , the one who has nothing does not have this option.

[On the edge]

I read this earlier and , though it is hard to stomach , if it was not for this work those children would be earning nothing. How many of the moral high grounder brigade will send enough in aid to alleviate their need ? The same criteria applies to the child sex trade , ivory poaching et cetera .

Market force dictates and will continue to do so and the exploitation of those less fortunate will follow . The man who has a penny can buy something costing a penny , the one who has nothing does not have this option.

But he has other options and some to the penny rich, seemingly quite unpleasant. Be very careful what you wish for!

[Biker1]

Nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, what more do you want?

All of which have an environmental impact.
(Tidal? How many MW do we generate using that?)

[blackdog]

All of which have an environmental impact.
(Tidal? How many MW do we generate using that?)

Everything we do has an environmental impact. If you want to reduce your environmental impact the biggest thing you can do is not have children.

Tidal power is in its infancy, but France has a 240MW plant, Korea a 254MW one; the Swansea project is planned to be 320MW.

And I forgot to mention hydroelectric.

[Biker1]

Everything we do has an environmental impact. If you want to reduce your environmental impact the biggest thing you can do is not have children.

Correct. Over population is the cause of most evil to the planet.

Tidal power is in its infancy, but France has a 240MW plant, Korea a 254MW one; the Swansea project is planned to be 320MW.

And I forgot to mention hydroelectric.

Interesting thanks.
I should imagine hydro- electric has the least environmental impact?
All you need is a bloody big dam!
Oh and a river.
Oh and a valley!

[On the edge]

Correct. Over population is the cause of most evil to the planet.

Interesting thanks.
I should imagine hydro- electric has the least environmental impact?
All you need is a bloody big dam!
Oh and a river.
Oh and a valley!

Hydro is a great way of shutting up the nimbys who don't like looking at windmills though. Once your house is under a good few feet of water; that problem disappears.

Still, fracking will save us and with luck the chemicals they leech into the water table might at least neutralise the chlorine taste in imported American chicken.....

[SirWilliam]

Correct. Over population is the cause of most evil to the planet.

Interesting thanks.
I should imagine hydro- electric has the least environmental impact?
All you need is a bloody big dam!
Oh and a river.
Oh and a valley!

And a few scattered villages so a few £million can be spent on consultation before re-housing them in a Swansea terrace , ( other terraces are undoubtedly available in equally desirable towns ), but they will be allowed to attend sightseeing days during periods of drought .

But that's ok because we don't live anywhere near.

[On the edge]

I wonder if those great minds looking at the UKs energy future will spot the opportunities round here. The run down of our independent nuclear capability must mean we have several,'nuclear sites' coming ready for new work.

[blackdog]

Hyrdro can mean big dams and drowned valleys, but it can also mean a small generator in a river. There is a storage facility in Wales that comes under this too - they pump water up into a reservoir when there is low demand on the grid and let if fall through a hydro generator at times of peak demand.

[On the edge]

Hyrdro can mean big dams and drowned valleys, but it can also mean a small generator in a river. There is a storage facility in Wales that comes under this too - they pump water up into a reservoir when there is low demand on the grid and let if fall through a hydro generator at times of peak demand.

Small generators exploiting the flow rather than the weight of the water are very effective, much more so when several are installed connected together. A few years back a chap in Hungerford was looking at a promising Archimedes screw made from light materials which needed little groundwork to install. Big water wheels can also be effective and pleasant to watch, 'public art'. Sustainable energy is all about joining up thinking and different technologies; recognising every little helps. Our top down 'only my idea counts' approach demonstrably doesn't work.

[Turin Machine]

I'm very much in favour of solar, I know that in this poxy climate it's not as effective as it could be but it still a largely unobtrusive means of generating power.

[SirWilliam]

I'm very much in favour of solar, I know that in this poxy climate it's not as effective as it could be but it still a largely unobtrusive means of generating power.

I remember reading a few years back that if the Sahara was covered completely with solar panels it would generate enough power to feed most of Europe . Now there may well have been an element of journalistic license but to be honest it is doing very little else and would bring employment to the "locals".

[blackdog]

I remember reading a few years back that if the Sahara was covered completely with solar panels it would generate enough power to feed most of Europe . Now there may well have been an element of journalistic license but to be honest it is doing very little else and would bring employment to the "locals".

If the figures are right it demonstrates the need for more than solar; if 3 million square miles of panels in a desert can't provide enough for Europe you have little chance of running the world from the sun.

And think of the eco impact of manufacturing that many panels!

[On the edge]

I'm very much in favour of solar, I know that in this poxy climate it's not as effective as it could be but it still a largely unobtrusive means of generating power.

It's not really a matter of personal preference, more what natural features can be utilised. Nothing wrong with any of the methods we could employ. Sure, there are going to be complaints, just as there were when Didcot was deemed necessary in the 1960s.


There is also the flip side of this, energy use reduction. Good design and innovation is also badly needed here. Look at the under insulated gas heated new flats we are shoving up in the town centre. Or the motor industry attempting to electrify by emulating ice vehicle design.

Not surprising really, when our media bemoan and struggle with the fact that big commercial users are paid to automatically switch off things when demand gets high.

[Simon Kirby]

And think of the eco impact of manufacturing that many panels!

I've no seen this analysis, but it would be interesting to see the per-kW environmental footprint of solar as against coal, oil, nuclear, wind, wave, and hydro. I may be wrong, but I'd guess that the environmental impact is less than for fossil-fuels generation and nuclear, so all things being equal solar might well be a good strategy if we could also develop better energy storage.

[Biker1]

I'm very much in favour of solar, I know that in this poxy climate it's not as effective as it could be but it still a largely unobtrusive means of generating power.

Right!

[On the edge]

I've no seen this analysis, but it would be interesting to see the per-kW environmental footprint of solar as against coal, oil, nuclear, wind, wave, and hydro. I may be wrong, but I'd guess that the environmental impact is less than for fossil-fuels generation and nuclear, so all things being equal solar might well be a good strategy if we could also develop better energy storage.

Storage is a key issue but gradually creeping forward. Sodium is still in play and had promise. We could also learn from emerging economies where recycling lead acid batteries, particularly deep cycle ones. Particularly in a domestic setting, this is a method of choice in some areas, ironically to bridge regular power outages from unreliable traditional distribution networks.

Batteries and other small scale storeage such as compressed air is much more effective if it can be shared with your neighbours. In fact one of the real reasons for Smart (on line) Metering.

[On the edge]

Right!

Good design is all. Now, imagine replacing all the failing slate roofs of (say) strings of Victorian housing and public buildings not with tiles and panels, but with panels alone. I suspect few of us would even notice.

[Biker1]

Good design is all. Now, imagine replacing all the failing slate roofs of (say) strings of Victorian housing and public buildings not with tiles and panels, but with panels alone. I suspect few of us would even notice.

Don't get me wrong. I not against generation from "renewable sources".
I am just pointing out that, in my opinion, there is a price to pay, lesser or greater, in some way for all our energy requirements.
Nothing comes for free!

[On the edge]

Don't get me wrong. I not against generation from "renewable sources".
I am just pointing out that, in my opinion, there is a price to pay, lesser or greater, in some way for all our energy requirements.
Nothing comes for free!

Absolutely; often disregarded truth.

[Turin Machine]

Nuclear pile in the basement. Gives a lovely pale blue glow through the house. Never need to switch the lights on now. Plus trained mice in a wheel in the shed, bit of cheese on a string, lovely!

[On the edge]

Nuclear pile in the basement. Gives a lovely pale blue glow through the house. Never need to switch the lights on now. Plus trained mice in a wheel in the shed, bit of cheese on a string, lovely!

Interesting what we are scared of isn't it? Bet you are happy sitting in a moving tin box with petrol sloshing about!

[SirWilliam]

Nuclear pile in the basement. Gives a lovely pale blue glow through the house. Never need to switch the lights on now. Plus trained mice in a wheel in the shed, bit of cheese on a string, lovely!

Just a thought but if we constructed treadmills at the appropriate points and conscripted the unemployed / pensioners and those children who's parents have benefitted from the tax payer to power them on a rota system, we would have a cost effective answer .

Alternatively we could just use less.

[On the edge]

Just a thought but if we constructed treadmills at the appropriate points and conscripted the unemployed / pensioners and those children who's parents have benefitted from the tax payer to power them on a rota system, we would have a cost effective answer .

Alternatively we could just use less.

British Gas have just got into big trouble for trying to encourage people to do just that, using the only way many seem to understand.

Not a matter of using less, more about using wisely.

[Turin Machine]

If early reports are correct, Mazda have cracked the HCCI problem and will be rolling out highly effective and efficient petrol engines in 2018 / 19 if true it will herald a new generation of ice technology!