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James_Trinder
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 25 2017, 09:14 AM) *
Maybe that's why most European countries still manufacture their own trains but we have to import ours from Japan!?


We do still manufacture our own trains:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_Carriage_and_Wagon_Works
On the edge
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Jul 25 2017, 01:21 PM) *


So we do; we just don't design them or direct the firm that does. You've proved the point. Both Bombadier Transportation and ADtranz are headquartered in Germany. To us in the UK 'manufacture' now means bolting components together and 'engineer' means someone who turns up to fix your washing machine.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 25 2017, 02:47 PM) *
So we do; we just don't design them or direct the firm that does. You've proved the point. Both Bombadier Transportation and ADtranz are headquartered in Germany. To us in the UK 'manufacture' now means bolting components together and 'engineer' means someone who turns up to fix your washing machine.


Mend a washing machine ? And that is part of the problem , though a lot of products have a longer working life when they eventually breakdown it is just not economically viable to repair , assuming you can find someone to undertake the task.
Your euro hatchback will quite happily run for years before deciding that the sensor that the manufacture " thoughtfully "built into the middle of the engine packs up and it dies on the side of the M1. Repair by the AA ? Not a celluloid cats chance so it's either a hefty garage bill or off to the scrap yard . Now we all know the internal combustion engine has come a long way but it is still based on a four stroke principle that was built by hand and equally could be taken apart by hand , repaired and put back together . Indeed if you had a ford you could have a few bits left over at the end and it still would run .
So having established that the modern engineer is a Japanese robot and most of our graduates end up working in a fast food outlet the question is plain and simple

Who the "Hades home" is going create the wealth to offset the national debt ? Only 65,000 for every household in the Country and very little chance of reducing anytime soon.
Andy Capp
And no body has gone to gaol!
Biker1
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Jul 25 2017, 01:21 PM) *

We do "assemble" trains here, many of the the Hitachi IEP's for GWR and Virgin will be assembled in the north east.
Not quite the same though is it? rolleyes.gif

"Bombardier Transportation is the rail equipment division of the Canadian firm Bombardier Inc. Bombardier Transportation is one of the world's largest companies in the rail vehicle and equipment manufacturing and servicing industry. The division is head-quartered in Berlin, Germany"

Hitachi claims their trains are "manufactured" here but the truth is it is effectively an assembly plant.

"The new manufacturing and assembly plant in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham is being developed to support the DfT-led Intercity Express Programme and future Hitachi Rail projects. The decision to manufacture and assemble rolling stock at these premises is a fundamental building block in Hitachi Rail Europe’s strategy for growth."

Also the class 802 trains that will run services through here to Devon and Cornwall are being manufactured by Hitachi in Italy.

The trains will be maintained by Hitachi leading to the loss of hundreds of jobs at the depots that currently maintain the HST's.
James_Trinder
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 26 2017, 08:36 AM) *
The trains will be maintained by Hitachi leading to the loss of hundreds of jobs at the depots that currently maintain the HST's.


I think that you are making the assumption that Hitachi would not take on any of these people at risk of redundancy, which is not an assumption that I would make.
On the edge
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Jul 26 2017, 01:26 PM) *
I think that you are making the assumption that Hitachi would not take on any of these people at risk of redundancy, which is not an assumption that I would make.


Hitachi will be able to say that the trains are a totally different design and need totally different servicing regimes. Even so, past experience with similar takeover elsewhere makes pessimistic assumptions wholly justified.

The HST trains are a very good illustration of the first rate British engineering skills we used to have but have now completely lost.
blackdog
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Jul 26 2017, 01:26 PM) *
I think that you are making the assumption that Hitachi would not take on any of these people at risk of redundancy, which is not an assumption that I would make.


Even so, one would hope that newer trains would be dseigned so as to reduce the need for maintenance - any new generation should mean fewer maintenance jobs.

On the edge
We've gradually lost our understanding of what is meant by the words make and manufacture. The motor industry, or rather in the UK, motor trade, suffers from exactly the same problem. Rejoice, a Car plant in Oxford is going to 'make' the electric Mini - meaning jobs are safe. In reality, make really means assemble and then only bolt together big components. Conception and design and the new technical bit, the motors, all done in Germany. Righly so, it's a German firm and Germany trains and grows superb engineers. For us, simply to save the packaging costs, we'll just assemble a kit of parts. No issue with that, but not something we ought to be boasting about surely?


Biker1
Interesting that the government who have just announced the banning of new petrol and diesel cars from 2040 for environmental reasons is the same government that has recently announced major cutbacks in the railway electrification programme that will mean the continuing use of diesel power for some time to come! rolleyes.gif
On the edge
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 27 2017, 10:13 AM) *
Interesting that the government who have just announced the banning of new petrol and diesel cars from 2040 for environmental reasons is the same government that has recently announced major cutbacks in the railway electrification programme that will mean the continuing use of diesel power for some time to come! rolleyes.gif


The whole issue is interesting, particularly given the time span. If, and for us it's a massive if, we get the answers right, it may be that things look rather different. Driverless vehicles and different types of construct and fuel need to be added to the mix. Frankly, it amazes me that anyone is even thinking of 'electrifying' an existing ice engined type car, or even electrifying a railway any further than we really need on today's projection. However, our demonstrable national lack of technical skills probably means our solutions will just be refitting what we have today; like putting an immersion heater in a steam engine and calling it an electric train.
Biker1
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 27 2017, 07:17 PM) *
like putting an immersion heater in a steam engine and calling it an electric train.

That's an interesting idea OTE.
But ridiculous surely?
Unlikely anyone has thought of that before!
On the edge
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 27 2017, 07:55 PM) *
That's an interesting idea OTE.
But ridiculous surely?
Unlikely anyone has thought of that before!


Great find; thanks for that!

Yes, see where an abundance of cheap electricity can lead! Seriously though, real innovation often takes what seems to have been a blind alley technology and adapting it anew. For instance, I'm convinced absorbtion refridgeration has a very bright future; because it's so much more fuel efficient than compression. So then, steam engines. Oliver Bullied the Southern's last steam engineer was the only one to try a fundamental rethink. His Leader class engines. Perhaps coupled up to an electric or otherwise fuelled boiler, it would work. Similarly, given micro reactors are more than feasible, no reason, apart from public fears, why that shouldn't be a source of primary heat.

Then there are straightforward electric trains. Sure, a lot of research still needed but there were and potentially still are high hopes for sodium and such like storeage batteries. So, in simple terms, how much lower would be the first cost to have electric trains running under the wires to say here and then switch to battery for the trip on to the West Country and back? Now that's a real bi mode train!



SirWilliam
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 27 2017, 10:13 AM) *
Interesting that the government who have just announced the banning of new petrol and diesel cars from 2040 for environmental reasons is the same government that has recently announced major cutbacks in the railway electrification programme that will mean the continuing use of diesel power for some time to come! rolleyes.gif


I trust you are not implying an element of hypocrisy from our beloved leaders ? rolleyes.gif
On the edge
New CEO of the franchise running South West Money, sorry Trains was being paraded today. He is absolutely committed to giving customers a much better deal, more coaches, more seats, more punctuality closer cooperation with Network Rail etc.etc. etc. So that's alright then.

SirWilliam
QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 2 2017, 07:10 PM) *
New CEO of the franchise running South West Money, sorry Trains was being paraded today. He is absolutely committed to giving customers a much better deal, more coaches, more seats, more punctuality closer cooperation with Network Rail etc.etc. etc. So that's alright then.


What a relief ! I was somewhat concerned that they may appoint a feckless individual who was out for his own ends.
On the edge
Well, consistent at least!

A great example of British engineering project management on display over the Bank Holiday, showcasing to World what we are like.

(Loved the excuse, if in doubt, blame it on the signals....)
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