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Phil_D11102

Is this what the WBC, the Corn Exchange, Greenham Parish Council and the Greenham Trust has diluted the sacrifices of U.S. and British forces down to, a dramatic representation? These young men, many did not return, gathered on Greenham Common to jump into Nazi held France to start the liberation of Europe.

One of the most iconic photos of the WWII was taken on the 5th of June, and there is nothing after 75 years to commemorate this.

Shameful, simply shameful.


"The eyes of the world are upon you" General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

75 years ago, Eisenhower made his famous speech at Greenham Common to encourage allied soldiers in preparation for the D-Day landings. Commemorating the legacy of this extraordinary moment in our history on both a local and national scale, follow Eisenhower in the days leading up to this event, along with a company from the 101st Airborne Divison stationed at Greenham and hear the stories of the local people of Newbury.

Audiences can expect to be taken back in time to experience the challenges and jubilance of war and to help them better understand how it affected those living on the air base and in the local area. Taking place at the recently extended 101 Outdoor Arts Creation Space on Greenham Business Park, D-Day 75 will comprise of interactive immersive performances from over 100 community performers, which will culminate in a celebratory tea dance led by a professional band of musicians.

Written by the Watermill Theatreís playwright in residence Danielle Pearson and co-produced with Corn Exchange Newbury and Greenham Trust

TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ Apr 26 2019, 12:08 PM) *
Is this what the WBC, the Corn Exchange, Greenham Parish Council and the Greenham Trust has diluted the sacrifices of U.S. and British forces down to, a dramatic representation? These young men, many did not return, gathered on Greenham Common to jump into Nazi held France to start the liberation of Europe.

One of the most iconic photos of the WWII was taken on the 5th of June, and there is nothing after 75 years to commemorate this.

Shameful, simply shameful.


"The eyes of the world are upon you" General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

75 years ago, Eisenhower made his famous speech at Greenham Common to encourage allied soldiers in preparation for the D-Day landings. Commemorating the legacy of this extraordinary moment in our history on both a local and national scale, follow Eisenhower in the days leading up to this event, along with a company from the 101st Airborne Divison stationed at Greenham and hear the stories of the local people of Newbury.

Audiences can expect to be taken back in time to experience the challenges and jubilance of war and to help them better understand how it affected those living on the air base and in the local area. Taking place at the recently extended 101 Outdoor Arts Creation Space on Greenham Business Park, D-Day 75 will comprise of interactive immersive performances from over 100 community performers, which will culminate in a celebratory tea dance led by a professional band of musicians.

Written by the Watermill Theatreís playwright in residence Danielle Pearson and co-produced with Corn Exchange Newbury and Greenham Trust


Perhaps Donald Trump will pay a visit..
Strafin
So you were complaining that nobody was doing anything, now they are you're complaining as it isn't enough? My Grandad is a D Day veteran and he would love to see something like this, it seems like a decent thing to do. Can't keep on every 5 years doing more and more.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (Strafin @ Apr 26 2019, 04:02 PM) *
So you were complaining that nobody was doing anything, now they are you're complaining as it isn't enough? My Grandad is a D Day veteran and he would love to see something like this, it seems like a decent thing to do. Can't keep on every 5 years doing more and more.


The tower can do this "Tonight at Greenham Control Tower, Nina Wakeford gave her performance of "An apprenticeship in queer I believe it was".

A spoken word, song and words from first-person accounts of women who were interviewed in a study of the peace camp.

Projected alongside Nina were thousands of images of forget-me-nots from the nearby memorial Peace Garden, photographed one by one on 16mm film.

One of photos gives you a behind the scenes insight of two of the 16mm projectors inside the tower.

Thank-you to Nina and her team for the bring the performance to The Tower."


but cannot have anything on the 75th anniversary of the D-Day. How flipping wrong is this. They want to have their artsy fartsy dramatic interpretation of what it was like living in Newbury, that's fine, but how is that connected with the tower?

RAF GC was the main base for D-Day. Nothing to remember this, nothing to remember the Allied Commander in Chief coming to talk to his troops.

Perhaps this is the true color of what the powers that be in Newbury truly feel about the American presence. Out of sight, out of mind.

Mr Brown
I thought the tower was erected in the aptly 1950s....a bit late for D Day. Sure, it's right, and we will commemorate the 75th anniversary of D Day - but in the right places for such a solumn occasion. Call me a killjoy, but I'm getting a tad concerned about our commemorations; the Amercian airforce wasn't the only participants and worthy though their contribution was, there used to be an old saying in our family about them being over paid, over sexed and over here. Frankly, we should remember the real heros, 18 year old lads in scratchy shapless British uniforms, who for transport would be lucky to find a bike, all on a pittance. No we haven't forgotten the war, or the allies, the Canadians, the Free French, the Australians etc.etc. and the Americans. The real shame is that we now take Hollywood as truth.
Biker1
Stop calling it the bloody "Peace Camp"! angry.gif
Surely we ALL want peace, it's just that there are varied views on how we achieve it?
Some may say that the presence of Greenham Airfield and the later cruise missile helped to maintain that peace?
"Protest Camp" would be a more suitable nomer.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Apr 29 2019, 09:09 AM) *
Stop calling it the bloody "Peace Camp"! angry.gif
Surely we ALL want peace, it's just that there are varied views on how we achieve it?
Some may say that the presence of Greenham Airfield and the later cruise missile helped to maintain that peace?
"Protest Camp" would be a more suitable nomer.


Well said sir. Like most viewpoints one only becomes discredited when it results in carnage, and as we are still here instead of huge mushroom cloud it appears that the correct choice was made.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Apr 28 2019, 05:12 PM) *
I thought the tower was erected in the aptly 1950s....a bit late for D Day. Sure, it's right, and we will commemorate the 75th anniversary of D Day - but in the right places for such a solumn occasion. Call me a killjoy, but I'm getting a tad concerned about our commemorations; the Amercian airforce wasn't the only participants and worthy though their contribution was, there used to be an old saying in our family about them being over paid, over sexed and over here. Frankly, we should remember the real heros, 18 year old lads in scratchy shapless British uniforms, who for transport would be lucky to find a bike, all on a pittance. No we haven't forgotten the war, or the allies, the Canadians, the Free French, the Australians etc.etc. and the Americans. The real shame is that we now take Hollywood as truth.


I have been contacting everyone currently connected with the tower, and I have been suggesting that a plaque is put up at the tower simply saying:

"For those who served 1942 to 1992"

It should have the Union Jack and U.S. flags on it crossover.

Nobody is interested.

I was told that there is a monument somewhere int the outlying villages regarding the U.S. forces from WWII.

Shocking that nothing official is happening anywhere in this area.
Strafin
Why is it so shocking?

Were you in the forces by any chance?
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (Strafin @ May 1 2019, 11:08 AM) *
Why is it so shocking?

Were you in the forces by any chance?


Why is it shocking, because an event that openly supports the peace women which you can see in today's NWN in the arts section, but cannot hold a milestone anniversary event that if it had failed, the face of Europe could be very different today.

Was I in the forces, yes, I was. 11 years in the USAF. I fell in love with this area so much that when I was discharged in 1992 I didn't return back to the USA. Why do I find events up at the base today so disturbing, because it looks like a run down derelict POS that was once a vibrant community. All it could of taken was some work and it could be a very vibrant leisure park just like the one in Basingstoke. Why do I feel so angry about the events at the control tower, because it is plan to see that the viewpoint is slant towards to peach women and their cause, and not the full history of the base. Even in the NWN write up about the below event took place at the USAAF base. The term USAAF hasn't been used since 1947. Shows how much accuracy goes into reporting.

Tonight at Greenham Control Tower, Nina Wakeford gave her performance of "An apprenticeship in queer I believe it was".

A spoken word, song and words from first-person accounts of women who were interviewed in a study of the peace camp.

Projected alongside Nina were thousands of images of forget-me-nots from the nearby memorial Peace Garden, photographed one by one on 16mm film.

One of photos gives you a behind the scenes insight of two of the 16mm projectors inside the tower.

Thank-you to Stephen Miles and Sarah Jayne Breadmore Miles from SJ Wines for looking us and treating our audience to some fantastic wines, and Dan from Loddon Brewery for the Hullabaloo.

To all at Reading International for facilitating all this as part of https://readinginternational.org/Ö/uncommoning-voices-noncoÖ programme of events.

And finally - a huge thank-you to Nina Wakeford and her team for the bring the performance to Greenham Control Tower.
je suis Charlie
It is I'm afraid can sign of the times, events that freed us from the tyranny of the Nazi's is mostly ignored except for benefits to the box office while a bunch of unwashed weekend warriors disruption of Newbury is treated as being 'cool' and 'culturally relevant'.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 2 2019, 03:57 PM) *
It is I'm afraid can sign of the times, events that freed us from the tyranny of the Nazi's is mostly ignored except for benefits to the box office while a bunch of unwashed weekend warriors disruption of Newbury is treated as being 'cool' and 'culturally relevant'.

Nazi's what?

It is a fact that Greenham is most remembered for cruise missiles and the protests. If we held a "do" at every location related to D Day we'd be swamped.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ May 2 2019, 04:03 PM) *
Nazi's what?

It is a fact that Greenham is most remembered for cruise missiles and the protests. If we held a "do" at every location related to D Day we'd be swamped.

Which would not be a bad thing, remember the sacrifice of the boys who jumped behind enemy lines, forget the smelly unwashed.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 2 2019, 04:03 PM) *
Nazi's what?

It is a fact that Greenham is most remembered for cruise missiles and the protests. If we held a "do" at every location related to D Day we'd be swamped.



Thanks to the determination of NATO, the deployment of the cruise missile across Europe finished off the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. Anyone who doesn't believe that is deluded. There are no celebrations for that.

How many of those young men who jumped out of the planes over Nazi occupied France are still alive? There will be celebrations in France for their liberation, but what about celebrating the fact that the UK didn't need to be liberated?

There is no plaque or monument up at Greenham who jumped into the night sky, and after 75 years, isn't it about time they are recognized here locally.

Again, one of the most iconic photos of WWII was taken locally, and that is not remembered anywhere in this area.

Shameful.
je suis Charlie
So, out of interest Phil, where are you from originally?
newres
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 2 2019, 05:05 PM) *
Thanks to the determination of NATO, the deployment of the cruise missile across Europe finished off the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. Anyone who doesn't believe that is deluded. There are no celebrations for that.

How many of those young men who jumped out of the planes over Nazi occupied France are still alive? There will be celebrations in France for their liberation, but what about celebrating the fact that the UK didn't need to be liberated?

There is no plaque or monument up at Greenham who jumped into the night sky, and after 75 years, isn't it about time they are recognized here locally.

Again, one of the most iconic photos of WWII was taken locally, and that is not remembered anywhere in this area.

Shameful.

Itís a view. I do think thereís a strong argument that nuclear weapons kept the peace but donít forget Kennedy was willing to sacrifice us over the Cuba crisis so I shouldnít get too dewy eyed. The idea that cruise missiles finished off the Warsaw Pact is ridiculous frankly.


Biker1
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 2 2019, 03:52 PM) *
Why is it shocking, because an event that openly supports the peace women which you can see in today's NWN in the arts section, but cannot hold a milestone anniversary event that if it had failed, the face of Europe could be very different today.

Aaarrgghh!!
Not "peace women".
Protesters yes.
Andy Capp
It is interesting because the Peace Camp women were not entirely appreciated by the locals, where as everyone seemed to have an American serviceman as a friend! Notwithstanding the brilliant air tattoos!
Biker1
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 6 2019, 09:34 PM) *
It is interesting because the Peace Camp women were not entirely appreciated by the locals,

PROTEST CAMP WOMEN, PROTEST CAMP WOMEN> rolleyes.gif
newres
QUOTE (Biker1 @ May 7 2019, 08:23 AM) *
PROTEST CAMP WOMEN, PROTEST CAMP WOMEN> rolleyes.gif

I've never heard them called that. It was always Peace camp. cool.gif
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Biker1 @ May 7 2019, 08:23 AM) *
PROTEST CAMP WOMEN, PROTEST CAMP WOMEN> rolleyes.gif

The name of the camp(s) is a matter of record: Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp. The Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp was a camp full of people protesting about nuclear weapons. I donít see why you are getting your petticoat in a twist? 😉
Biker1
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 7 2019, 09:17 PM) *
The name of the camp(s) is a matter of record: Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp. The Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp was a camp full of people protesting about nuclear weapons. I don’t see why you are getting your petticoat in a twist? ��

Because it is a misnomer Andy.
We have peace which has been achieved so far with or without the camp.
Some may say it is because we had / have these weapons that peace, so far, remains.
We all want peace. If a camp had been set up in support of the weapons surely this could have been described as a "Peace Camp" also?
I know it is futile trying at this stage to rename a historical inaccuracy but just trying to make a point. smile.gif

P.S. PLEASE don't stoop to the level of newres and include personal silliness in your comments. Also an inaccuracy as I have given up wearing petticoats!!
Thanks. wink.gif
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Biker1 @ May 8 2019, 06:09 AM) *
Because it is a misnomer Andy.
We have peace which has been achieved so far with or without the camp.
Some may say it is because we had / have these weapons that peace, so far, remains.
We all want peace. If a camp had been set up in support of the weapons surely this could have been described as a "Peace Camp" also?
I know it is futile trying at this stage to rename a historical inaccuracy but just trying to make a point. smile.gif

P.S. PLEASE don't stoop to the level of newres and include personal silliness in your comments. Also an inaccuracy as I have given up wearing petticoats!!
Thanks. wink.gif

It was called the 'Womens Peace Camp' because it portrayed a warm fuzzy image of the sisterhood. The 'Bunch of Living on the Dole, smelly, crapping in the bushes getting in everyone's way Camp' didn't play so well.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 8 2019, 06:53 PM) *
It was called the 'Womens Peace Camp' because it portrayed a warm fuzzy image of the sisterhood. The 'Bunch of Living on the Dole, smelly, crapping in the bushes getting in everyone's way Camp' didn't play so well.

Are you a Newburian? I didnít move here until 91 and there was only a token number there then. How did they get in your way?
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ May 8 2019, 08:05 PM) *
Are you a Newburian? I didnít move here until 91 and there was only a token number there then. How did they get in your way?

Blocking roads, weekend princesses parking all over the roads, using local pubs toilets to wash in, constantly waving stuff in your face in town. ******* horrible.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Biker1 @ May 8 2019, 06:09 AM) *
Because it is a misnomer Andy.
We have peace which has been achieved so far with or without the camp.
Some may say it is because we had / have these weapons that peace, so far, remains.
We all want peace. If a camp had been set up in support of the weapons surely this could have been described as a "Peace Camp" also?
I know it is futile trying at this stage to rename a historical inaccuracy but just trying to make a point. smile.gif

P.S. PLEASE don't stoop to the level of newres and include personal silliness in your comments. Also an inaccuracy as I have given up wearing petticoats!!
Thanks. wink.gif

Peace is subjective: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/art...-Hiroshima.html
Phil_D11102
The peace camp was a direct result of why NATO deployed the cruise across Europe, to ensure personal freedoms and liberties.

However, the media and left wing has turned them into martyrs, which is far from the truth.

The funniest things I think is the peace women dancing on the empty shelter in the GAMA. There was nothing in them, and they made out that is was a great triumph. Ask them if they got close when the cruise and vehicles were in there? err, no...
http://www.fredsakademiet.dk/abase/sange/greenham/song41.htm

The fact that they would disrupt the missiles deploying. They didn't even have to leave the GAMA to be used, doh.

On the 20th anniversary of the trust, during a talk at the RBL in Newbury. There were a couple of peace women in the audience who stated that they never but children in danger during the protests, and up popped a picture of a child in it's mothers arms in the middle of the road with a vehicle trying to pass. What was the response from the women, that photo was of one of the other gate's peace women..

Again, they had their place in history, but the fact is that the cruise missile deployment was one of the reasons why the Warsaw Pact fell apart, and many of the former countries are part of NATO.

It's sad that 75 years after the invasion of Europe in which the Nazi's were defeated, and the importance of Greenham Common during this time is being downplayed by a lack of official ceremonies..

Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 2 2019, 09:10 PM) *
Itís a view. I do think thereís a strong argument that nuclear weapons kept the peace but donít forget Kennedy was willing to sacrifice us over the Cuba crisis so I shouldnít get too dewy eyed. The idea that cruise missiles finished off the Warsaw Pact is ridiculous frankly.


Are you serious? Stop drinking the Kool aid. Do you think the peace women ended the Cold War and the saw the demise of the Warsaw Pact. I guess the INF treaty had nothing to do with it.
newres
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 9 2019, 11:52 AM) *
Are you serious? Stop drinking the Kool aid. Do you think the peace women ended the Cold War and the saw the demise of the Warsaw Pact. I guess the INF treaty had nothing to do with it.

Can you explain how that treaty led to the demise of the Warsaw Pact?

The Peace Women certainly raised awareness of the Americans sticking nuclear weapons on our soil. They put Greenham Common on the map too.
Biker1
OK was it the "peace" women's (I give in, I'll go along with it!) presence or the nuclear weapon's presence that maintained the peace?
And by that I mean peace in Europe and with Russia since the Cuban Crisis.
newres
QUOTE (Biker1 @ May 9 2019, 05:15 PM) *
OK was it the "peace" women's (I give in, I'll go along with it!) presence or the nuclear weapon's presence that maintained the peace?
And by that I mean peace in Europe and with Russia since the Cuban Crisis.

Does it have to be one or the other? The Peace Women certainly created a lot of awareness of and opposition to US missiles on our soil. Arguably the Russian missiles prevented US aggression. I totally get why Iran wants them.

But I would say the alliance between the old enemies of France and Germany is whatís really led to peace and stability.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ May 9 2019, 06:16 PM) *
Does it have to be one or the other? The Peace Women certainly created a lot of awareness of and opposition to US missiles on our soil. Arguably the Russian missiles prevented US aggression. I totally get why Iran wants them.

But I would say the alliance between the old enemies of France and Germany is whatís really led to peace and stability.

I honestly don't know where to begin. It's either a poor education or very subtle trolling.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 9 2019, 07:26 PM) *
I honestly don't know where to begin. It's either a poor education or very subtle trolling.

Educate me then.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ May 9 2019, 09:43 PM) *
Educate me then.

I would try but I'm afraid it would be like trying to explain astro physics to a flat earther. "The Peace Women certainly created a lot of awareness of and opposition to US missiles on our soil. Arguably the Russian missiles prevented US aggression"

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 10 2019, 12:36 AM) *
I would try but I'm afraid it would be like trying to explain astro physics to a flat earther. "The Peace Women certainly created a lot of awareness of and opposition to US missiles on our soil. Arguably the Russian missiles prevented US aggression"

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

But you havenít got any evidence to the contrary? You lot do make me laugh the way you think others are the products of mainstream media when in fact itís you thatís swallowed the lot. Itís like arguing with a 13 year old Sun reader at times.
je suis Charlie
Expand on your claim that Russia prevented American aggression.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 10 2019, 05:23 AM) *
But you havenít got any evidence to the contrary? You lot do make me laugh the way you think others are the products of mainstream media when in fact itís you thatís swallowed the lot. Itís like arguing with a 13 year old Sun reader at times.


Arguably the Russian missiles prevented US aggression"


I have no proof? I am the living proof. My last assignment was RAF GC. Before I arrived the INF treat was signed and I was worried they would change my assignment.

Why do you think the Russians signed the INF treaty? Because they couldn't keep up the pace of developing and deploying new systems. Why did the Russian satellite countries do away with their communist govt's? Because they were tired of being told what to do by the Russians, while NATO was working together as partners.

Why did some of the former Warsaw Pact countries send troops to a U.S. led coalition known as the first Gulf War. Didn't the Russians try to use their influence to stop it.

This isn't make believe, it is fact.
Turin Machine
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 10 2019, 12:36 AM) *
I would try but I'm afraid it would be like trying to explain astro physics to a flat earther. "The Peace Women certainly created a lot of awareness of and opposition to US missiles on our soil. Arguably the Russian missiles prevented US aggression"

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

And, you were right! Reykjavik never happened, Gorby was just too worried about the women's peace camp, that's why he started pulling missiles. The Russians weren't aggressive, no no no, Cuba was a figment of our imagination! A brutal dictatorship steam rollering its way across Europe? Never happened. Iron curtain? Didn't exist. It was all American aggression all along. Good job uncle Joe was there to protect us.
Blake
QUOTE (newres @ May 9 2019, 11:54 AM) *
Can you explain how that treaty led to the demise of the Warsaw Pact?

The Peace Women certainly raised awareness of the Americans sticking nuclear weapons on our soil. They put Greenham Common on the map too.


Do your homework on this; it was in fact West German government and Jim Callaghan that urged the deployment of GLCM.
newres
QUOTE (Blake @ May 11 2019, 09:29 PM) *
Do your homework on this; it was in fact West German government and Jim Callaghan that urged the deployment of GLCM.

I wasn’t even in my teens, but the first result from Google doesn’t really back up what you say and I can’t imagine any Labour government “urging” a deployment here. The US have always been willing to sacrifice Europe in a nuclear war.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 12 2019, 06:18 PM) *
I wasnít even in my teens, but the first result from Google doesnít really back up what you say and I canít imagine any Labour government ďurgingĒ a deployment here. The US have always been willing to sacrifice Europe in a nuclear war.


The Cruise was developed and a deterrent to the Soviet build up of their short and medium range nuclear.

The cruise and NATO resolve did it's job, it brought the Russians to the table and end the Cold War.

If anyone thinks different they need to stop drinking the kool aid made by the Greenham women and CND..
newres
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 13 2019, 08:17 AM) *
The Cruise was developed and a deterrent to the Soviet build up of their short and medium range nuclear.

The cruise and NATO resolve did it's job, it brought the Russians to the table and end the Cold War.

If anyone thinks different they need to stop drinking the kool aid made by the Greenham women and CND..

That really is just an opinion. Gorbachev becoming leader had nothing to do with Cruise missiles. The Soviets already had plenty of capability to wipe out Western Europe so it wasnít a deterrent to building more. I canít pretend to have huge knowledge of the subject, but thereís some obvious nonsense being spouted on here.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 13 2019, 10:17 AM) *
That really is just an opinion. Gorbachev becoming leader had nothing to do with Cruise missiles. The Soviets already had plenty of capability to wipe out Western Europe so it wasnít a deterrent to building more. I canít pretend to have huge knowledge of the subject, but thereís some obvious nonsense being spouted on here.


Your a bit slow on the uptake. Try reading this..

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/INFtreaty

Gorbachev did play his part, as he saw that NATO wasn't going to bend. Cruise is what made Gorbachev come to the table.

Look at the map in the article, cruise was deployed willingly by NATO. Do you think Russia asked for the opinion of the the GDR and Czechoslovakia?

This in not opinion, it's fact...
newres
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 14 2019, 11:22 AM) *
Your a bit slow on the uptake. Try reading this..

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/INFtreaty

Gorbachev did play his part, as he saw that NATO wasn't going to bend. Cruise is what made Gorbachev come to the table.

Look at the map in the article, cruise was deployed willingly by NATO. Do you think Russia asked for the opinion of the the GDR and Czechoslovakia?

This in not opinion, it's fact...

Gorbachev and Perestroika is what led to arms reduction. Even your link says there was no progress until Gorbachev came along. rolleyes.gif
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ May 14 2019, 11:42 AM) *
Gorbachev and Perestroika is what led to arms reduction. Even your link says there was no progress until Gorbachev came along. rolleyes.gif

And sod all to do with the gate witches.
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 14 2019, 11:42 AM) *
Gorbachev and Perestroika is what led to arms reduction. Even your link says there was no progress until Gorbachev came along. rolleyes.gif


Gorbachev did have the foresight to move forward and talk to Reagan, and they ultimately did sign the INF treaty. But again what made Gorbachev to make his move? Maybe the "growing number of allied intermediate-range missile warheads in Europe."
No, that couldn't make him do it. Surely it was CND and the peace women.

You seem to forget that the missiles were coming him from the UK down to Italy, where as the Russians were contained to more or less the center of the Warsaw Pact.
newres
QUOTE (Phil_D11102 @ May 14 2019, 03:13 PM) *
Gorbachev did have the foresight to move forward and talk to Reagan, and they ultimately did sign the INF treaty. But again what made Gorbachev to make his move? Maybe the "growing number of allied intermediate-range missile warheads in Europe."
No, that couldn't make him do it. Surely it was CND and the peace women.

You seem to forget that the missiles were coming him from the UK down to Italy, where as the Russians were contained to more or less the center of the Warsaw Pact.

What motivated him was his vision of Perestroika which ultimately led to the break up of the Soviet Union. Signing a treaty didn't mean he had to allow the empire to split up. The continued spending was futile and he saw that. Try broadening your perspective a little.

The CND/Peace women argument is a strawman argument.
Biker1
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 14 2019, 12:09 PM) *
And sod all to do with the gate witches.

laugh.gif laugh.gif
I like that one!!
Phil_D11102
QUOTE (newres @ May 14 2019, 05:00 PM) *
What motivated him was his vision of Perestroika which ultimately led to the break up of the Soviet Union. Signing a treaty didn't mean he had to allow the empire to split up. The continued spending was futile and he saw that. Try broadening your perspective a little.

The CND/Peace women argument is a strawman argument.


The INF treaty went into effect on the 1st of June 1988. 18 months later, Nicolae Ceauşescu was executed alongside his wife in Bucharest. That was more or less the last of the former Warsaw Pact to shrug off the Soviet yoke.

If you cannot see this, try looking at this:


https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/zq63b9q/revision/4

Yes, Gorbachev had his part, but he realized that the Russians could not keep up with the arms race, hence the INF treaty and the start of the domino effect.
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