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newres
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 04:01 PM) *
I don't like to say this, but a detailled analysis presently underway, comes to a contrary conclusion. This looks across the piece focusing on what 'degree level education' really means in the UK. In essence, the way we implemented state comprehensive secondary education meant that the 1944 Act 'grammar, technical and secondary' separation were mixed meaning all pupils received the technical level - Teachers simply can't teach all levels in one class. In practical terms, that meant they have been taught just to accept base facts and not to question them. We see this by the well reported dumbing down of GCE / GCSE testing. Then, as the Government created a demand that at least 50% of students should go to university, a shortage of these institutes lead to the re-classification of most County Technical Colleges and Art Schools, without any increase in course standards. A perfect storm. An unintended consequence is the now vast number of younger people who simply accept what they have been taught to believe are absolutes in fact terms, the accuracy being underpinned simply by being from an official source faux or otherwise - sadly, these are the 'remain' young voter. Similarly, there are a significant number of older people, who were educated before this dumbing down had time to take effect, and these seem to be in the exit camp. This analysis is, of course, deeply disturbing to those guiding our education policy as well as the Government, not least because it calls into sharp focus the worth of student loans, let alone the billions pumped into state education. It's fairly easy these days to get a international comparisons, just one example demonstrates. India has dramatically improved it's attainment levels since independence, both secondary and university. Hence, very little IT coding or indeed development is done these days without heavy Indian involvement. So, perhaps this is why we are now in a bit of a mess with Brexit. From my own perspective, it also tells another message. That is, much as I'd want to exit the EU, sadly, we appear to have lost the management and operational capability to stand on our own. In essence. we have created a workforce that has to be told what to do but none educated sufficiently to do the telling. A dilemma indeed.

Letís hope the youngsters get taught how to use paragraphs.
Strafin
Nice to have someone different posting on here, thanks for joining in. Newres, that was unnecessary.

newres
QUOTE (Strafin @ Feb 26 2019, 04:24 PM) *
Nice to have someone different posting on here, thanks for joining in. Newres, that was unnecessary.

I donít think so. He made unsubstantiated criticisms that were merely opinion of the reasoning ability of the young but framed it in such a way that it was virtually unintelligible.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 23 2019, 05:52 PM) *
Actually, Mr I've got a degree.

ticktockor tic∑toc[tik-tok]
noun
an alternating ticking sound, as that made by a clock.
verb (used without object)
to emit or produce a ticking sound, like that of a clock.

However you spell it, looks like youíll have to reset it and perhaps even bin it because itís looking a distinct possibility that TM will only get her deal through with a public vote to follow.
Mr Brown
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 04:27 PM) *
I donít think so. He made unsubstantiated criticisms that were merely opinion of the reasoning ability of the young but framed it in such a way that it was virtually unintelligible.


No, the reasoning ability of the young is not criticised. Advanced reasoning is a learned ability and the analysis is suggesting they have been very badly let down by our secondary education and further education systems.

I would strongly suggest that your initial adverse review is simply because this analysis has produced a result that is at odds with the thinking of the past three or four decades. That's pretty normal in situations where careful research demonstrates major flaws in previous established 'truths'.

This isn't my analysis and I'm not at liberty to indicate the source; for the very reasons you've demonstrated. However, inspite of how difficult you may find the oresentation, I'd urge you to think on the basic outcomes and then provide a challenge. It would indeed be good to know that our young people (or a big proportion) really are educated to old grammar / Oxbridge standards.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Strafin @ Feb 26 2019, 04:24 PM) *
Nice to have someone different posting on here, thanks for joining in. Newres, that was unnecessary.

When did newres ever do anything else on this forum.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 04:30 PM) *
However you spell it, looks like youíll have to reset it and perhaps even bin it because itís looking a distinct possibility that TM will only get her deal through with a public vote to follow.

It's actually looking unlikely to end up with a second vote, what we don't need, I certainly don't, is an extension to the whole process, either do it or drop it. It's the uncertainty that's damaging industry.
newres
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 05:44 PM) *
No, the reasoning ability of the young is not criticised. Advanced reasoning is a learned ability and the analysis is suggesting they have been very badly let down by our secondary education and further education systems.

I would strongly suggest that your initial adverse review is simply because this analysis has produced a result that is at odds with the thinking of the past three or four decades. That's pretty normal in situations where careful research demonstrates major flaws in previous established 'truths'.

This isn't my analysis and I'm not at liberty to indicate the source; for the very reasons you've demonstrated. However, inspite of how difficult you may find the oresentation, I'd urge you to think on the basic outcomes and then provide a challenge. It would indeed be good to know that our young people (or a big proportion) really are educated to old grammar / Oxbridge standards.

Iím not a ďyoungĒ person. The educated v non educated is across the age range so your argument that you canít substantiate is false.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 26 2019, 06:00 PM) *
It's actually looking unlikely to end up with a second vote, what we don't need, I certainly don't, is an extension to the whole process, either do it or drop it. It's the uncertainty that's damaging industry.

Well the pound has soared today. No deal being removed will to a large one extent end the uncertainty and will benefit business. Donít forget BJís ď**** businessĒ retort. The side of the Tory party that Amber Rudd and others represent is far more concerned with the success of business than the Leave campaign are. If you truly do run a business you canít possibly want the kind of ďcertaintyĒ that no deal offers.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 26 2019, 05:57 PM) *
When did newres ever do anything else on this forum.

Iíve always called out total bollix, youíre quite right.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 07:02 PM) *
Iíve always called out total bollix, youíre quite right.

https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entr...&s.start=60

SirWilliam
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 26 2019, 01:59 PM) *
Indeed the real sheep are the ones voting for the status quo (stay in the EU). The brexiteers have more vision and can see a life outside of the EU superstate.


No Sir, real sheep choose their leaders on their ability to lead the flock and ignore those who think it would be a good wheeze to do so. We could do a lot worse than follow their example.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 26 2019, 07:26 PM) *

Interesting. wink.gif

Obviously Newres is just an abbreviation of Newbury resident. Iím guessing TDH is really just a joke about you being short, bald and ugly. tongue.gif
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Feb 26 2019, 07:50 PM) *
No Sir, real sheep choose their leaders on their ability to lead the flock and ignore those who think it would be a good wheeze to do so. We could do a lot worse than follow their example.

Since when do sheep choose their leader?
Mr Brown
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 06:56 PM) *
Iím not a ďyoungĒ person. The educated v non educated is across the age range so your argument that you canít substantiate is false.


Educated is the key point, the question is to what level. Like it or not, the highest level of should teach you to think in the abstract and that means testing and challenging accepted norms. Nothing wrong with a 'technical / polytechnic' level, provided that the data that this level needs to perform is accurate and tested.

After the result, the voting data analysis revealed that a significant number of young university graduates voted to remain. That data might not be accurate itself, although random tests suggest it is broadly right.

The analysis I've referred to in earlier posts was not primarily looking at the Brexit vote, ironically, that came later. The original purpose was to test the contention that overall UK educational standards were slipping against international comparitors - inspite of increases in funding.

In reality, the issue isn't with the youngsters, it's with the strategists and deliverers of state education.

Mr Brown
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 26 2019, 06:00 PM) *
It's actually looking unlikely to end up with a second vote, what we don't need, I certainly don't, is an extension to the whole process, either do it or drop it. It's the uncertainty that's damaging industry.


Yes, undoubtedly. Any business with a yen to survive will want as much certainly as possible for fairly obvious reasons. That doesn't mean they don't want change though, simply time to adapt.
newres
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 08:11 PM) *
Educated is the key point, the question is to what level. Like it or not, the highest level of should teach you to think in the abstract and that means testing and challenging accepted norms. Nothing wrong with a 'technical / polytechnic' level, provided that the data that this level needs to perform is accurate and tested.

After the result, the voting data analysis revealed that a significant number of young university graduates voted to remain. That data might not be accurate itself, although random tests suggest it is broadly right.

The analysis I've referred to in earlier posts was not primarily looking at the Brexit vote, ironically, that came later. The original purpose was to test the contention that overall UK educational standards were slipping against international comparitors - inspite of increases in funding.

In reality, the issue isn't with the youngsters, it's with the strategists and deliverers of state education.

I wouldnít be surprised if our education levels were below some ďcompetingĒ countries but thatís a different point. It indisputable that the more educated weíre mire likely to vote Remain and Iíd argue that this was because education frees people from tribalism.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 07:01 PM) *
Well the pound has soared today. No deal being removed will to a large one extent end the uncertainty and will benefit business. Donít forget BJís ď**** businessĒ retort. The side of the Tory party that Amber Rudd and others represent is far more concerned with the success of business than the Leave campaign are. If you truly do run a business you canít possibly want the kind of ďcertaintyĒ that no deal offers.


No deal has not been removed, far from it little munchkin.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 07:54 PM) *
Since when do sheep choose their leader?

All flocks have a dominant 'lead' member.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 08:55 PM) *
I wouldnít be surprised if our education levels were below some ďcompetingĒ countries but thatís a different point. It indisputable that the more educated weíre mire likely to vote Remain and Iíd argue that this was because education frees people from tribalism.


Wood yuu like to chek the speeling in your last post. 😂
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 26 2019, 09:03 PM) *
Wood yuu like to chek the speeling in your last post. 😂

Iím on the iPhone and actually canít see what Iím typing after a certain point. But itís always amusing when somebody thatís banging on about education types a load of crap.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 26 2019, 09:00 PM) *
All flocks have a dominant 'lead' member.

Iím guessing youíve a more intimate relationship with the local flocks than I have so I bow to your knowledge. tongue.gif
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 09:05 PM) *
Iím on the iPhone and actually canít see what Iím typing after a certain point. But itís always amusing when somebody thatís banging on about education types a load of crap.

Ah, the old, phat phinger, screen's blurry, auto correct, I'm dyslexic pantheon of excuses. Always quick to pick up on other people's errors though, degree boy. 🤗
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 09:07 PM) *
Iím guessing youíve a more intimate relationship with the local flocks than I have so I bow to your knowledge. tongue.gif

Actually it's more of an interest in the world around me, rather than just Facebook and Google. 🤣
Mr Brown
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 08:55 PM) *
I wouldnít be surprised if our education levels were below some ďcompetingĒ countries but thatís a different point. It indisputable that the more educated weíre mire likely to vote Remain and Iíd argue that this was because education frees people from tribalism.


How do you work that out? Clearly you haven't grasped anything I've said, maybe because it's not clear. Nonetheless, your wholly ungrounded last remark rather supports the point about our declining standards.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 08:18 PM) *
Yes, undoubtedly. Any business with a yen to survive will want as much certainly as possible for fairly obvious reasons. That doesn't mean they don't want change though, simply time to adapt.

Once the deal is done no matter what the outcome there will inevitably be a brief hiatus. Then it will settle and we can continue to grow. I don't see it being a real problem, more a brief spasm or rictus of momentary discomfort.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 09:12 PM) *
How do you work that out? Clearly you haven't grasped anything I've said, maybe because it's not clear. Nonetheless, your wholly ungrounded last remark rather supports the point about our declining standards.

For him that wasn't bad, he used lots of letters, words and even managed to construct a sentence. He just couldn't get any of those things in the right order. 👍
Mr Brown
Tribalism in the context of the EU is ironic to say the least! It's a tribalist set up, the two founding protagonists Germany and France are well recognised even in the EU itself for their tribalist approach to almost any proposal. We can see the same in Eire and indeed Scotland. So, 'education frees people from tribalisim' doesn't seem to be that true.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 26 2019, 09:05 PM) *
Iím on the iPhone and actually canít see what Iím typing after a certain point. But itís always amusing when somebody thatís banging on about education types a load of crap.

Oooo.. It's got an iPhone. Bet it's got all the gadgets and drives a 4◊4 and then protests about global warming after getting back from a skiing holiday. In fact are you the parent I saw picking up 2 school 6th formers In the 4◊4 after there little "protest" rally about the environment in Newbury town centre the other day? Placards in the back of the 4◊4 and then home. 🤣🤣🤣
Mr Brown
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 26 2019, 09:15 PM) *
Once the deal is done no matter what the outcome there will inevitably be a brief hiatus. Then it will settle and we can continue to grow. I don't see it being a real problem, more a brief spasm or rictus of momentary discomfort.


Yes, I can see that, and the reality of some momentary discomfort. So, I suppose it's a question of how that gets managed politically. There's the old adage of standing firm by putting your collar up turning ar** into the wind whilst the storm rages. Let's face it, like her or not, TM has a backbone of steel and hasn't flinched from her purpose. That's real leadership.
Strafin
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 09:29 PM) *
Yes, I can see that, and the reality of some momentary discomfort. So, I suppose it's a question of how that gets managed politically. There's the old adage of standing firm by putting your collar up turning ar** into the wind whilst the storm rages. Let's face it, like her or not, TM has a backbone of steel and hasn't flinched from her purpose. That's real leadership.

Well she started off as a remainer...
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Strafin @ Feb 27 2019, 10:42 AM) *
Well she started off as a remainer...

For me, that's her attraction, she's a firm remainer but, still sticking to her guns to see that the country gets what it voted for. Good for her.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2019, 11:30 AM) *
For me, that's her attraction, she's a firm remainer but, still sticking to her guns to see that the country gets what it voted for. Good for her.

Whereas JC would sell his soul for power. If you think Brexit will bring about an exodus then that pales into insignificance with the exodus of wealth generators that would happen with a Corbyn Marxist government. The only people left would be on benefits. 🤣
newres
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Feb 26 2019, 09:20 PM) *
Tribalism in the context of the EU is ironic to say the least! It's a tribalist set up, the two founding protagonists Germany and France are well recognised even in the EU itself for their tribalist approach to almost any proposal. We can see the same in Eire and indeed Scotland. So, 'education frees people from tribalisim' doesn't seem to be that true.

The EU is the opposite of tribalism.Tribalism is nationalism.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 27 2019, 12:06 PM) *
The EU is the opposite of tribalism.Tribalism is nationalism.

Which is what he said.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2019, 11:30 AM) *
For me, that's her attraction, she's a firm remainer but, still sticking to her guns to see that the country gets what it voted for. Good for her.

Well according to Farage and Rees Mogg her deal is NOT what the country voted for. Therein lies the problem.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2019, 12:08 PM) *
Which is what he said.

Put your glasses on and read it with your finger pointing to one word at a time.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 27 2019, 12:10 PM) *
Put your glasses on and read it with your finger pointing to one word at a time.

Tried that but your phat phinger was in the way.
Strafin
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 27 2019, 12:08 PM) *
Well according to Farage and Rees Mogg her deal is NOT what the country voted for. Therein lies the problem.

The only people who really knew what they were voting for were remainers. You may not agree with their sentiment but as we are already in the EU they are the only ones who knew exactly what was on offer.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Strafin @ Feb 27 2019, 01:57 PM) *
The only people who really knew what they were voting for were remainers. You may not agree with their sentiment but as we are already in the EU they are the only ones who knew exactly what was on offer.

In theory, however does everyone who voted remain agree with contributions to the EU armed forces, or the EU deciding tax burdens for individuals or the EU allocating immigrants to individual nations, or are happy at the insane levels of corruption at top levels? Not to mention the overturning of UK court decisions by the EU? I actually heard one interview where the young lady wailed that it was wrong 'cos I like Europe, now I won't be able to go there' which pretty much summed up for me the level of understanding of the situation. 🤔
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2019, 02:04 PM) *
In theory, however does everyone who voted remain agree with contributions to the EU armed forces, or the EU deciding tax burdens for individuals or the EU allocating immigrants to individual nations, or are happy at the insane levels of corruption at top levels? Not to mention the overturning of UK court decisions by the EU? I actually heard one interview where the young lady wailed that it was wrong 'cos I like Europe, now I won't be able to go there' which pretty much summed up for me the level of understanding of the situation. 🤔

If they voted remain on the whole they were content. I'm not going to vote to do away with democracy just because I may think there's corruption in MP's expenses claims for example. Nothing's perfect is it? Not even me!
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 27 2019, 02:36 PM) *
If they voted remain on the whole they were content. I'm not going to vote to do away with democracy just because I may think there's corruption in MP's expenses claims for example. Nothing's perfect is it? Not even me!

Thick as mince the majority of remainers. Ask any of them what the main treaties of the EU are and what they mean. Most won't be able to name one. But they want to be part of a Union they have no understanding of. Cos it's Europe. Innit.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 27 2019, 02:59 PM) *
Thick as mince the majority of remainers. Ask any of them what the main treaties of the EU are and what they mean. Most won't be able to name one. But they want to be part of a Union they have no understanding of. Cos it's Europe. Innit.

Yup. About right. Find me a remainer, any remainer who can satisfactorily explain the ramifications of the Lisbon treaty can you? Without them having to Google it first.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 27 2019, 11:44 AM) *
Whereas JC would sell his soul for power. If you think Brexit will bring about an exodus then that pales into insignificance with the exodus of wealth generators that would happen with a Corbyn Marxist government. The only people left would be on benefits. 🤣


And pensioners. JCeeeeeeee for king. rolleyes.gif
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 27 2019, 02:59 PM) *
Thick as mince the majority of remainers. Ask any of them what the main treaties of the EU are and what they mean. Most won't be able to name one. But they want to be part of a Union they have no understanding of. Cos it's Europe. Innit.

Unfortunately the facts say the opposite.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2019, 03:31 PM) *
Yup. About right. Find me a remainer, any remainer who can satisfactorily explain the ramifications of the Lisbon treaty can you? Without them having to Google it first.

Can you explain them?
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 27 2019, 04:25 PM) *
Unfortunately the facts say the opposite.

So you are saying that remainers have an understanding of the EU treaties? Or not?
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Feb 27 2019, 04:26 PM) *
Can you explain them?

Yup.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2019, 05:21 PM) *
Yup.

But you voted Remain so youíre a remainer.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 27 2019, 04:38 PM) *
So you are saying that remainers have an understanding of the EU treaties? Or not?

You said remainers were thick as mince. The data says itís the Leavers that are less intelligent.
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