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newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 15 2019, 09:00 PM) *
Some people will have voted Tory or Labour all their life and will continue to do so whether they be remain or leave. The last EU election turnout was 34%.. what's your guess? I am going for 57%...

I couldnít guess but I think more or less whatever percentage votes Brexit is the absolute maximum perverse have for a no deal exit. They are highly motivated to vote. Much more so than moderate thinking folk.

I see what JSC was referring to now. Stephen Barclay. He misses the second referendum option. Surely that is more palatable than revoking. I donít think revoking is the correct path without a vote.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 15 2019, 09:22 PM) *
I couldnít guess but I think more or less whatever percentage votes Brexit is the absolute maximum perverse have for a no deal exit. They are highly motivated to vote. Much more so than moderate thinking folk.

I see what JSC was referring to now. Stephen Barclay. He misses the second referendum option. Surely that is more palatable than revoking. I donít think revoking is the correct path without a vote.


This is the rub.. For me you accept the first vote, implement and then in a few years see how things are panning out. If it's a complete disaster (which a lot of remainers seem to want strangely) then OK, accept we can't be a sovereign nation anymore, sign up to the EURO and abolish parliament and be ruled completely by Brussels... this half in half out thing we are doing at the moment is expensive and confusing to Joe Public.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 15 2019, 09:29 PM) *
This is the rub.. For me you accept the first vote, implement and then in a few years see how things are panning out. If it's a complete disaster (which a lot of remainers seem to want strangely) then OK, accept we can't be a sovereign nation anymore, sign up to the EURO and abolish parliament and be ruled completely by Brussels... this half in half out thing we are doing at the moment is expensive and confusing to Joe Public.

But we are sovereign nation and we arenít ruled by Brussels. Itís such an odd way of thinking. I just donít get it. I get that some people donít like foreigners but I canít understand how anyone can think weíre ruled by Brussels. I could get how a less influential country might feel that way (although not true) but weíre right at the heart of Brussels and incredibly influential.

Entering into negotiations is accepting the first vote but itís been a disaster from beginning to end. Call another referendum and see what people want to do. What people believed they were voting for canít be delivered. The country is a mess. British Steel looks likely to be a massive casualty imminently.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 15 2019, 10:12 PM) *
But we are sovereign nation and we arenít ruled by Brussels. Itís such an odd way of thinking. I just donít get it. I get that some people donít like foreigners but I canít understand how anyone can think weíre ruled by Brussels. I could get how a less influential country might feel that way (although not true) but weíre right at the heart of Brussels and incredibly influential.

Entering into negotiations is accepting the first vote but itís been a disaster from beginning to end. Call another referendum and see what people want to do. What people believed they were voting for canít be delivered. The country is a mess. British Steel looks likely to be a massive casualty imminently.


But British Steel are a big polluter... your arguments sometimes contradict... surely you want this polluter closed down??? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it. Hard choices we face... PS I don't consider anyone a "foreigner" as you so eloquently put it. We are all single organisms living on a delicate planet. Doesn't mean I want some flu type viruses around me. Sounds crass but said statement applies to all humans (nothing to do with colour, race, religion or sexual preference). I like nice hard working decent people that pay taxes and are law abiding. I understand that some people need a bit more help and I do help financially where I can...it's more than some do.🙄
je suis Charlie
Corpse, Rotting, Shackled.

"Eurostat figures show output in the 19 countries sharing the euro fell by 0.3 percent on the month, in line with market expectations, with the second and third largest economies in the area leading the loss. The monthly fall also follows a decrease on the previous month, when production fell 0.1 percent in February. France saw production decline by 1.0 percent in March, while Italy recorded a fall of 0.9 percent in the same month. The shift down in gear followed increases in the two previous months in both countries."
Strafin
One of the reasons I questioned evidence and started the whole "linky thing" discussion back along, was because of things like this. You seem able to copy and paste a quote (supposedly) from an internet source, and you can copy and paste links, because I have seen you do it. So why are you so selective when you are trying to cite things as a fact like what you wrote above? Is it not a quote? Is it a lie? Ir is there just more to it?
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Strafin @ May 16 2019, 08:35 AM) *
One of the reasons I questioned evidence and started the whole "linky thing" discussion back along, was because of things like this. You seem able to copy and paste a quote (supposedly) from an internet source, and you can copy and paste links, because I have seen you do it. So why are you so selective when you are trying to cite things as a fact like what you wrote above? Is it not a quote? Is it a lie? Ir is there just more to it?

I post what's relevant, some people here simply don't have the wherewithal to open a link and read a whole report.
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 16 2019, 10:30 AM) *
I post what's relevant, some people here simply don't have the wherewithal to open a link and read a whole report.

What link?
je suis Charlie
Well, the "big two" votes might change now, as the Conservatives have finally launched their EPE campaign (six days before the election), and Labour's mailshots have been arriving.
Labour seems to think it's a General Election, because its pamphlet is full of what they'd do here in the UK, like more money for policing, reversing "reckless and unnecessary Tory cuts" (mentioned twice in two pages) and making Britain fairer... none of which it can do even if it gets every MEP the UK can return. It mentions the EU ONCE, with a single sentence that says change the deal, or a General Election, or a second referendum.
It also promises to unite the country, which is hilarious as half of the country is opposed to the other half, and Corbyn can't even unite his socks with his feet, much less his own party, uniting e country is a pipe dream.
I think Labour has got used to, and actually prefers, being in opposition. After Blair and Brown did a Mercer Frey on the vaults 15 years ago perhaps they've realised they can't actually wield any power without ******* everything up, and they just want to sit on the sidelines yelling about how **** everyone else is at doing it - which is why they've got the vacillating grandpa up front and push out weak **** like this while Farage waves his dogwhistle about.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 18 2019, 02:11 PM) *
Well, the "big two" votes might change now, as the Conservatives have finally launched their EPE campaign (six days before the election), and Labour's mailshots have been arriving.
Labour seems to think it's a General Election, because its pamphlet is full of what they'd do here in the UK, like more money for policing, reversing "reckless and unnecessary Tory cuts" (mentioned twice in two pages) and making Britain fairer... none of which it can do even if it gets every MEP the UK can return. It mentions the EU ONCE, with a single sentence that says change the deal, or a General Election, or a second referendum.
It also promises to unite the country, which is hilarious as half of the country is opposed to the other half, and Corbyn can't even unite his socks with his feet, much less his own party, uniting e country is a pipe dream.
I think Labour has got used to, and actually prefers, being in opposition. After Blair and Brown did a Mercer Frey on the vaults 15 years ago perhaps they've realised they can't actually wield any power without ******* everything up, and they just want to sit on the sidelines yelling about how **** everyone else is at doing it - which is why they've got the vacillating grandpa up front and push out weak **** like this while Farage waves his dogwhistle about.


Will you vote JSC?
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 18 2019, 03:05 PM) *
Will you vote JSC?

I have rarely missed a vote, I think it's a dereliction of ones civic duty not to engage in the process.
Mr Brown
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 18 2019, 04:31 PM) *
I have rarely missed a vote, I think it's a dereliction of ones civic duty not to engage in the process.


Very good advice; which I'll certainly follow.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 18 2019, 02:11 PM) *
Well, the "big two" votes might change now, as the Conservatives have finally launched their EPE campaign (six days before the election), and Labour's mailshots have been arriving.
Labour seems to think it's a General Election, because its pamphlet is full of what they'd do here in the UK, like more money for policing, reversing "reckless and unnecessary Tory cuts" (mentioned twice in two pages) and making Britain fairer... none of which it can do even if it gets every MEP the UK can return. It mentions the EU ONCE, with a single sentence that says change the deal, or a General Election, or a second referendum.
It also promises to unite the country, which is hilarious as half of the country is opposed to the other half, and Corbyn can't even unite his socks with his feet, much less his own party, uniting e country is a pipe dream.
I think Labour has got used to, and actually prefers, being in opposition. After Blair and Brown did a Mercer Frey on the vaults 15 years ago perhaps they've realised they can't actually wield any power without ******* everything up, and they just want to sit on the sidelines yelling about how **** everyone else is at doing it - which is why they've got the vacillating grandpa up front and push out weak **** like this while Farage waves his dogwhistle about.


Labour are akin to the proverbial dog in a manger. Even they must appreciate that we have never had a labour government that left the country in a better position when they were voted out than they inherited. The tories on the other hand are only too aware of this and with the odd exception have used it as a spare ace up the sleeve. This european x in the box jobbie is a thermometer to the forthcoming general election, (whenever that is supposed to be?). Labour voters will vote labour or ukip/brexit, conservative voters will vote tory or ukip/brexit, the libs will collect a few disillusioned crumbs and along with the greens and claim some form of pyrrhic victory.
Anyway my postal vote helps the royal mail and political journalists are guaranteed a job for a bit longer.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ May 18 2019, 05:03 PM) *
Labour are akin to the proverbial dog in a manger. Even they must appreciate that we have never had a labour government that left the country in a better position when they were voted out than they inherited. The tories on the other hand are only too aware of this and with the odd exception have used it as a spare ace up the sleeve. This european x in the box jobbie is a thermometer to the forthcoming general election, (whenever that is supposed to be?). Labour voters will vote labour or ukip/brexit, conservative voters will vote tory or ukip/brexit, the libs will collect a few disillusioned crumbs and along with the greens and claim some form of pyrrhic victory.
Anyway my postal vote helps the royal mail and political journalists are guaranteed a job for a bit longer.

I'm no great fan of Farage but I will be voting for the Brexit party..

2 main reasons

#democracy
#eumafia

If Brexit is cancelled or revoked it will cause untold damage.
Many people will never vote again.

If Brexit go's ahead it may result in short term pain.

I prefer the short term pain...

The main thing is we all have 1 vote and we should aĺl use it. Don't moan about the outcome if you don't!!!
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 18 2019, 06:46 PM) *
I'm no great fan of Farage but I will be voting for the Brexit party..

2 main reasons

#democracy
#eumafia

If Brexit is cancelled or revoked it will cause untold damage.
Many people will never vote again.

If Brexit go's ahead it may result in short term pain.

I prefer the short term pain...

The main thing is we all have 1 vote and we should aĺl use it. Don't moan about the outcome if you don't!!!

To be honest those threatening to never vote again might actually not be a bad thing.
newres
On a serious note. Does it occur to anyone else that if May goes but secures her WA with a confirmatory referendum, BJ might be delighted with that? As it stands whatever happens thereís no way the Tories are electable and the further to the right they go, the less electable they become. A referendum would draw a line and BJ could blame May for it all. Obviously things still wonít be brilliant but a hard Brexit and the damage even the Brexit party accepts is inevitable will kill the Tories.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 18 2019, 08:03 PM) *
On a serious note. Does it occur to anyone else that if May goes but secures her WA with a confirmatory referendum, BJ might be delighted with that? As it stands whatever happens thereís no way the Tories are electable and the further to the right they go, the less electable they become. A referendum would draw a line and BJ could blame May for it all. Obviously things still wonít be brilliant but a hard Brexit and the damage even the Brexit party accepts is inevitable will kill the Tories.


May should never have been in charge. Worst Prime Minister since Blair..the only good thing she did was what she didn't do..start a pointless war...
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 18 2019, 07:53 PM) *
To be honest those threatening to never vote again might actually not be a bad thing.

I agree. Only people that have the correct "approved" opinions should be aĺlowed to vote .. people with the wrong opinion should be removed from all social media for spreading disinformation that is against the approved ideals.... 🤔
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 18 2019, 08:35 PM) *
May should never have been in charge. Worst Prime Minister since Blair..the only good thing she did was what she didn't do..start a pointless war...

Blair was an outstandingly successful PM other than Iraq.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 18 2019, 08:39 PM) *
I agree. Only people that have the correct "approved" opinions should be aĺlowed to vote .. people with the wrong opinion should be removed from all social media for spreading disinformation that is against the approved ideals.... 🤔

Well a basic level of literacy should be required. Donít worry, youíd just about scrape through.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 18 2019, 08:43 PM) *
Blair was an outstandingly successful PM other than Iraq.

Yep.. he was great.😂😂😂😂😂😂
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 18 2019, 08:44 PM) *
Well a basic level of literacy should be required. Donít worry, youíd just about scrape through.

No I don't think I should be allowed to vote as I don't have the correct approved opinions.. surely you want me sent to a gulag???
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 18 2019, 08:50 PM) *
No I don't think I should be allowed to vote as I don't have the correct approved opinions.. surely you want me sent to a gulag???

It’s not the opinion so much as how one arrives at the opinion and expresses it.

Anyway, interesting article on voting intentions here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/m...re_iOSApp_Other

What’s becoming clear is that Labour have far more to fear from remainers deserting them than leavers.
TallDarkAndHandsome

So you don't want people with opinions you don't agree with expressing views you don't agree with....welcome to the Orwellian world of newres...
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 18 2019, 09:16 PM) *
So you don't want people with opinions you don't agree with expressing views you don't agree with....welcome to the Orwellian world of newres...

Some people are very easily triggered.
je suis Charlie
All going pear shaped for JC.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/m...tch-to-lib-dems
newres
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 19 2019, 11:39 AM) *

And he alone is responsible for it.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 19 2019, 02:36 PM) *
And he alone is responsible for it.

Remainers get more and more desperate.... laying the ground for a "the vote wasn't legal move" after the massacre on Thursday...

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehistoryguy/st...111918570725377

newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 19 2019, 09:49 PM) *
Remainers get more and more desperate.... laying the ground for a "the vote wasn't legal move" after the massacre on Thursday...

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehistoryguy/st...111918570725377

Do you think heís lying?

There is so much that is quite remarkable about Farage and the Brexit ďpartyĒ but his fansbois wonít hear it. Heís a liar, heís a racist and a hypocrite. All is well documented but they wonít accept it. Just like Trump with his 10,000 lies since being in office.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 20 2019, 06:04 AM) *
Do you think heís lying?

There is so much that is quite remarkable about Farage and the Brexit ďpartyĒ but his fansbois wonít hear it. Heís a liar, heís a racist and a hypocrite. All is well documented but they wonít accept it. Just like Trump with his 10,000 lies since being in office.

I think he wants to believe it and is probably ill. You seem to be suffering as well. Might start a crowdfunder for treatment for you guys after the results are declared..😂
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 20 2019, 06:46 AM) *
I think he wants to believe it and is probably ill. You seem to be suffering as well. Might start a crowdfunder for treatment for you guys after the results are declared..😂

I think the Remain parties will have the greater share but Brexit will do a little better than UKIP last time. Get some perspective.
James_Trinder
It's interesting that a second referendum is now a potential option again:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48357017

What is also interesting is that June will probably be the end of May, albeit two years later than Labour were originally hoping for in the last general election.
newres
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ May 22 2019, 01:18 PM) *
It's interesting that a second referendum is now a potential option again:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48357017

What is also interesting is that June will probably be the end of May, albeit two years later than Labour were originally hoping for in the last general election.

A second referendum or a GE are the only way we'll break the deadlock. Leavers will be terrified of either because Remain is very clearly ahead in every poll and the Brexit party will ensure a Labour victory if they promise a confirmatory referendum and a Lab/Lib alliance if they don't.
James_Trinder
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 01:41 PM) *
A second referendum or a GE are the only way we'll break the deadlock. Leavers will be terrified of either because Remain is very clearly ahead in every poll and the Brexit party will ensure a Labour victory if they promise a confirmatory referendum and a Lab/Lib alliance if they don't.


I don't want another general election personally, primarily because I don't want a Labour government due to their inability to manage the economy properly. I also doubt that the current government would allow a general election to be held under any circumstances. Realistically that leaves a second referendum as the only sensible option.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 01:41 PM) *
A second referendum or a GE are the only way we'll break the deadlock. Leavers will be terrified of either because Remain is very clearly ahead in every poll and the Brexit party will ensure a Labour victory if they promise a confirmatory referendum and a Lab/Lib alliance if they don't.


Don't think so. Leavers are certainly not terrified of either. It's called democracy. Just a shame democracy seems to be a bit pick n mix on the remain side. Still if you lose another referendum you can always call for a 3rd and if you win I have no doubt you will want legislation passed so the vote can never happen again.😂
newres
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ May 22 2019, 02:14 PM) *
I don't want another general election personally, primarily because I don't want a Labour government due to their inability to manage the economy properly. I also doubt that the current government would allow a general election to be held under any circumstances. Realistically that leaves a second referendum as the only sensible option.

I sense you're young James. Until the banking crisis, the economy was doing ok under the last Labour government. I don't want a Corbyn government, but it'll be a **** site less damaging than Brexit. As someone who earns dividends I expect to be worse off under a Corbyn government if he sticks to the last manifesto.
Strafin
Why do people always say that Labour are bad with the economy? I know James didn't mention that he thought the tories were good with it, but I am assuming that's what you meant.

Regarding a second referendum, I find it really difficult to see how those who voted Brexot and still insist it's a good thing would accept it. If it isn't an engaging and representative exercise it isn't worth doing. But I can't see us moving forward without something. No deal is a disaster waiting to happen. Either way there is going to be a **** of a lot of pis5ed off people in this country.
James_Trinder
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 02:27 PM) *
I sense you're young James. Until the banking crisis, the economy was doing ok under the last Labour government. I don't want a Corbyn government, but it'll be a **** site less damaging than Brexit. As someone who earns dividends I expect to be worse off under a Corbyn government if he sticks to the last manifesto.


It depends on how you define young. I'm 37 years old and old enough to remember Labour spending beyond their means when the economy was doing well in the early noughties. I have also heard stories from my parents of the previous Labour government of the seventies and the associated problems of that period. In fact, the current shadow cabinet is very much old Labour and consists of at least some MP who were around at that time. I would agree that Brexit is probably more damaging than a Labour government but I would rather not have to make the choice between a frying pan and a fire or a rock and a hard place if I can possibly avoid it.
James_Trinder
QUOTE (Strafin @ May 22 2019, 02:35 PM) *
Why do people always say that Labour are bad with the economy? I know James didn't mention that he thought the tories were good with it, but I am assuming that's what you meant.


I think that the Conservatives are better with the economy than Labour because they encourage private sector investment and generally maintain a pretty lean public sector, unlike the previous Labour government who actually increased the number of public sector jobs while in office.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ May 22 2019, 02:47 PM) *
I think that the Conservatives are better with the economy than Labour because they encourage private sector investment and generally maintain a pretty lean public sector, unlike the previous Labour government who actually increased the number of public sector jobs while in office.

Careful James, you'll go on the newres "list".😂
newres
QUOTE (James_Trinder @ May 22 2019, 02:47 PM) *
I think that the Conservatives are better with the economy than Labour because they encourage private sector investment and generally maintain a pretty lean public sector, unlike the previous Labour government who actually increased the number of public sector jobs while in office.

Is less doctors and nurses and police officers a good thing? Personally I think we should all be paying more tax.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 03:44 PM) *
Is less doctors and nurses and police officers a good thing? Personally I think we should all be paying more tax.

You can always donate to the NHS fella. Just go to the cashiers office at any hospital. They will accept donations.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 22 2019, 03:54 PM) *
You can always donate to the NHS fella. Just go to the cashiers office at any hospital. They will accept donations.

Do you not think we should spend more on it? Or are you more for the Farage approach and scrap it?
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 03:59 PM) *
Do you not think we should spend more on it? Or are you more for the Farage approach and scrap it?

Depends what you mean by "more"? And how this extra money is invested. I don't particularly want to pay for cosmetic surgery such as breast enhancements but would be happy to pay more for things like Cancer treatments.. It's not as simple as you make out.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 22 2019, 04:32 PM) *
Depends what you mean by "more"? And how this extra money is invested. I don't particularly want to pay for cosmetic surgery such as breast enhancements but would be happy to pay more for things like Cancer treatments.. It's not as simple as you make out.

I think you're being ridiculous. As if any one in the current crisis would be advocating more money for breast enhancement.

Compare waiting times now to the end of the last Labour government and try to remember that it isn't just "other people" that suffer poor service and outcomes through a lack of resources.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/ja...ancer-treatment
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 04:53 PM) *
I think you're being ridiculous. As if any one in the current crisis would be advocating more money for breast enhancement.

Compare waiting times now to the end of the last Labour government and try to remember that it isn't just "other people" that suffer poor service and outcomes through a lack of resources.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/ja...ancer-treatment


How much is your more though? And how is it going to be raised? I have no doubt you just want to raise tax on anyone who earns more than you.🤣
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 22 2019, 05:01 PM) *
How much is your more though? And how is it going to be raised? I have no doubt you just want to raise tax on anyone who earns more than you.🤣

I think it's the basic rate that needs to go up actually.

An extra 5% across all bands? Something like that.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 05:05 PM) *
I think it's the basic rate that needs to go up actually.

5 percent. Wow. Is all that extra revenue going to just the NHS?
Surely most of it will have to go in social security as everyone will be skint.
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ May 22 2019, 05:05 PM) *
5 percent. Wow. Is all that extra revenue going to just the NHS?
Surely most of it will have to go in social security as everyone will be skint.

Not just the NHS, but also education, police and so on. Mind you, they will have to go up if we Brexit with no deal.

Oh, by the way, I wonder how S****horpe's Brexit voters are feeling at the moment? They won't be the last Brexit voting northern town to pay the price.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ May 22 2019, 05:10 PM) *
Not just the NHS, but also education, police and so on. Mind you, they will have to go up if we Brexit with no deal.

Oh, by the way, I wonder how S****horpe's Brexit voters are feeling at the moment? They won't be the last Brexit voting northern town to pay the price.


Yep. It's all brexit. Nothing to do with a 120 million Bill to the EU for carbon emissions. Norhing to do with China makung more steel in a year than we have in history. Nithing to do with the EU stopping government intervention. Nope.. it's all down to Brexit voters.
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