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SirWilliam
Not a day goes by without the pothole issue being raised and figures that would shame the GDP of most Countries offered as the cost both in repair and in damage, yet how many of the whinging Audi, ( other makes are available ), drivers would consider driving slower and using that round thing in front of them to steer around the hole? Oh no! Let's throw money at the problem and to h**l with the NHS needs or elderly care. I agree that those wretched traffic humps are the worst culprit as there is no way of avoiding them but if nothing else a hole in the road should reduce speed without the need for expensive cameras etc. If you want to experience Newbury's tarmac problems try pushing a wheelchair along pavements that have been dug up more times than one can remember and never left in a flat state. Even those pavements that are reasonable good have poor access points because of 2 or 3 inch disparity, or are blocked off by a parked car. Do we ever hear the disabled complain? If they do I doubt anyone listens as numerically they are very much a minority and therefore don't matter. angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif
DereckT
Hi Sir William
You indeed make some good points, but i beleive you have overlooked a couple of things.
1. Light - at night many roads do not have adequate (if any) lighting, and if the pothole is the same colour as surrounding surface, they are virtually impossible to see.
2. Rain - which we do seem to have a lot of recently !. This effectively hides the pothole in a puddle, and certainly on the minor roads where there are puddles on both sides of the road, it is a gamble.
Most drivers do slow down / try to avoid them, but its not always possible. I think it is a policy by WBC to slow down the drivers of those cars with lowered suspension !
Riding a pushbike, these holes are not just inconveneient, they can be lethal.
Safe pushing
Regards
Andy Capp
Exactly; itís a health risk for other road users, especially two wheeled vehicles and emergency services.
On the edge
It's ironic that footpaths should be used as an example of our crumbling roads network given that the intended users can't use them with any degree of safety anyway! What with parked cars and vans, cyclists, disability trollies, monster baby buggies and utility excavation spoil heaps.

A few years back, I spent a good deal of time in LA, where the roads, even the trunk routes, were in a far worse state than anything we see round here. However, it was very obvious mean average speeds were lower than in UK. II came home only to find our dear departed LibDems were merriliy trying to do the same in the UK, by installing speed humps etc.

The 'pot holes' do mean drivers have to concentrate rather more and thus keep speeds down and that also includes militant cyclists!

So arguably, austerity has done us a favour, demonstrating we can reap the safety benefits which come when drivers are slower and more attentive without spending a penny.
SirWilliam
I agree that for two wheeled transport it is life threatening but my point is that it is always a motorist that has a microphone shoved under their nose for a vox pop alongside footage of a german car ploughing through a crater big enough to swallow a washing machine without any thought of slowing down or steering around said obstacle. Every time a pothole is "hit" it increases in size yet no one accepts liability. Anyone who has driven in Malta, Greece etc will recognise the need for driver awareness as their holes will stop you in your tracks but the locals do not complain. Probably because no one would take notice if they did.
On the edge
Quite agree. The good old vox pop interview, the curse of modern society. Its ok for interviewers to be excruciatingly rude to Ministers; so why do they always treat the clearly simple with kid gloves? 'So, sir, you've spent several thousand on this apparently delicate motor and found it doesn't run well on UK roads; where have you been for the last decade?'. Would be nice if we could make a start on pressing the need for personal responsibility.
Andy Capp
Thereís nothing safer about having to concentrate on where in the road you may drive or ride.
On the edge
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 12 2018, 03:37 PM) *
Thereís nothing safer about having to concentrate on where in the road you may drive or ride.


The road safety experts disagree, hence strangely positioned and sharp height road humps, rumble strips and the like. Arguably, modern 4x4 type cars of which there are very many these days are built to cope with rough terrine. Even so, drivers are lulled into a false sense of safety by the comfortable, air conditioned, tank like construction of many cars which induces a lack of concentration. A sharp bang now and again serves to remind. I'd also argue that drivers having to cough up to replace suspension components is rather more effective than using traffic police or cameras to keep speeds down.
x2lls
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 12 2018, 05:20 PM) *
The road safety experts disagree, hence strangely positioned and sharp height road humps, rumble strips and the like. Arguably, modern 4x4 type cars of which there are very many these days are built to cope with rough terrine. Even so, drivers are lulled into a false sense of safety by the comfortable, air conditioned, tank like construction of many cars which induces a lack of concentration. A sharp bang now and again serves to remind. I'd also argue that drivers having to cough up to replace suspension components is rather more effective than using traffic police or cameras to keep speeds down.



Round things in a dual bag. Absolute twaddle.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 12 2018, 05:20 PM) *
The road safety experts disagree, hence strangely positioned and sharp height road humps, rumble strips and the like. Arguably, modern 4x4 type cars of which there are very many these days are built to cope with rough terrine. Even so, drivers are lulled into a false sense of safety by the comfortable, air conditioned, tank like construction of many cars which induces a lack of concentration. A sharp bang now and again serves to remind. I'd also argue that drivers having to cough up to replace suspension components is rather more effective than using traffic police or cameras to keep speeds down.

I had one of those once, gave me the right gyp.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 12 2018, 05:20 PM) *
The road safety experts disagree, hence strangely positioned and sharp height road humps, rumble strips and the like.

Tell that to the emergency services, besides, unlike potholes, those obstacles are signposted.
On the edge
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 13 2018, 02:01 AM) *
Tell that to the emergency services, besides, unlike potholes, those obstacles are signposted.


We don't put 30mph signs up on every single road so that's no answer. If the emergency services are seriously objecting, then they'd have had the humps removed, even bus drivers, where such traffic calming measures cause serious issues have failed on that one. Answer is straightforward, drive at the right speed.
On the edge
QUOTE (x2lls @ May 12 2018, 11:56 PM) *
Round things in a dual bag. Absolute twaddle.


Care to explain why? We have rather too many people who think just because they want to use an expensive, overwide, over heavy vehicle, we should increase the size of parking spaces and the strength of the road surfaces to cope. Needs to be remembered that most unfilled pot holes exist not on main routes but on local roads; which were built with foundations to support far lighter vehicles and certainly not a constant flow of what are really wide tyred heavy trucks. Shame the car industry marketeers / designers didn't think that through when they were introduced.
je suis Charlie
Then you certainly won't like what happens when everyone changes over to hybrid. Extra 500kgs to cart about.
On the edge
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 13 2018, 10:53 AM) *
Then you certainly won't like what happens when everyone changes over to hybrid. Extra 500kgs to cart about.


More than happy, again market forces. Not everyone will be able to afford or keep such vehicles so there could be rather less. Yes, they might create more damage to the infrastructure, in which case it's a choice of carrying on as we are or significantly increasing road tax for these vehicles. Hybrid isn't the optimum let alone the end solution anyway.

je suis Charlie
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 13 2018, 03:37 PM) *
More than happy, again market forces. Not everyone will be able to afford or keep such vehicles so there could be rather less. Yes, they might create more damage to the infrastructure, in which case it's a choice of carrying on as we are or significantly increasing road tax for these vehicles. Hybrid isn't the optimum let alone the end solution anyway.

Quite agree, banged up roads are meat and drink for the Range Rover. If the poor can't keep up they can always walk. More room on the roads for us Bud. Market forces rule!!
On the edge
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ May 14 2018, 12:06 AM) *
Quite agree, banged up roads are meat and drink for the Range Rover. If the poor can't keep up they can always walk. More room on the roads for us Bud. Market forces rule!!


Absolutely. Further, it gives those without a real incentive to strive hard to earn more and better gives the entrepreneurial mind a new opportunity to offer alternatives. A double win; that is wealth trickling down for real.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 14 2018, 08:53 AM) *
Absolutely. Further, it gives those without a real incentive to strive hard to earn more and better gives the entrepreneurial mind a new opportunity to offer alternatives. A double win; that is wealth trickling down for real.


"Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so, ad infinitum.
And the great fleas, themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on;
While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on".

Welcome to the flea market. cool.gif
Berkshirelad
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 13 2018, 03:37 PM) *
More than happy, again market forces. Not everyone will be able to afford or keep such vehicles so there could be rather less. Yes, they might create more damage to the infrastructure, in which case it's a choice of carrying on as we are or significantly increasing road tax for these vehicles. Hybrid isn't the optimum let alone the end solution anyway.


...and you don't think it is significantly increased?

I pay a lot more VED and fuel duty for mt Range Rover compared to SWMBO's Mondeo
Andy Capp
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 13 2018, 07:15 AM) *
We don't put 30mph signs up on every single road so that's no answer. If the emergency services are seriously objecting, then they'd have had the humps removed, even bus drivers, where such traffic calming measures cause serious issues have failed on that one. Answer is straightforward, drive at the right speed.

You dodged the point I was making: the random unexpected nature of some potholes make them dangerous for all road users, whether driving at the speed limit or not.
On the edge
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 15 2018, 07:19 AM) *
You dodged the point I was making: the random unexpected nature of some potholes make them dangerous for all road users, whether driving at the speed limit or not.


I'll probably get shot down for this, but certainly round here I haven't seen one pothole deep enough to be dangerous to proper road users. Yes, some do go deeper or various reasons, but the Council do actually repair these very rapidly.

I have a problem with 'all' road users. Some have unreasonable expectations, which is a other matter entirely. For instance, a cyclist I know who damaged a very expensive racing cycle hitting a crumbled road surface. He complained bitterly, but, looking at it logically, why on earth was he expecting a velodrome standard surface to practice his hobby when he hadn't paid a brass cent towards it? His ability to pass freely along the Queen's highway, which his taxes pay to be paved and drained is the only entitlement.

Sure, for some old or poorly designed vehicles, riding over rough surfaces will cause damage - particularly if done at speed. Knowing our road surfaces are not and in reality never have been, silky smooth means holes might be random, but can be expected and anticipated - rather like pedestrians.

The emergency service managements are also said to complain, but what public service manager doesn't keep complaining these days. However, even a casual glance at their issues tells a different story. Their biggest difficulty is random parking, where self centred drivers leave vehicles parked in such a way as to block progress; usually in areas of high density housing. Again, down to unreasonable expectations of certain road users, who feel that the general population ought to pay for somewhere they can park their vehicle where they choose to end their journey.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 15 2018, 08:01 AM) *
I'll probably get shot down for this, but certainly round here I haven't seen one pothole deep enough to be dangerous to proper road users. Yes, some do go deeper or various reasons, but the Council do actually repair these very rapidly.

I have a problem with 'all' road users. Some have unreasonable expectations, which is a other matter entirely. For instance, a cyclist I know who damaged a very expensive racing cycle hitting a crumbled road surface. He complained bitterly, but, looking at it logically, why on earth was he expecting a velodrome standard surface to practice his hobby when he hadn't paid a brass cent towards it? His ability to pass freely along the Queen's highway, which his taxes pay to be paved and drained is the only entitlement.

Sure, for some old or poorly designed vehicles, riding over rough surfaces will cause damage - particularly if done at speed. Knowing our road surfaces are not and in reality never have been, silky smooth means holes might be random, but can be expected and anticipated - rather like pedestrians.

The emergency service managements are also said to complain, but what public service manager doesn't keep complaining these days. However, even a casual glance at their issues tells a different story. Their biggest difficulty is random parking, where self centred drivers leave vehicles parked in such a way as to block progress; usually in areas of high density housing. Again, down to unreasonable expectations of certain road users, who feel that the general population ought to pay for somewhere they can park their vehicle where they choose to end their journey.


Ah the voice of common sense, which undoubtedly will be vilified by the baying forumites, makes an unexpected appearance. To be honest Newbury has pretty good roads compared to some towns, but still has it's share of selfish drivers.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (On the edge @ May 15 2018, 08:01 AM) *
I'll probably get shot down for this, but certainly round here I haven't seen one pothole deep enough to be dangerous to proper road users. Yes, some do go deeper or various reasons, but the Council do actually repair these very rapidly.

I have a problem with 'all' road users. Some have unreasonable expectations, which is a other matter entirely. For instance, a cyclist I know who damaged a very expensive racing cycle hitting a crumbled road surface. He complained bitterly, but, looking at it logically, why on earth was he expecting a velodrome standard surface to practice his hobby when he hadn't paid a brass cent towards it? His ability to pass freely along the Queen's highway, which his taxes pay to be paved and drained is the only entitlement.

Sure, for some old or poorly designed vehicles, riding over rough surfaces will cause damage - particularly if done at speed. Knowing our road surfaces are not and in reality never have been, silky smooth means holes might be random, but can be expected and anticipated - rather like pedestrians.

The emergency service managements are also said to complain, but what public service manager doesn't keep complaining these days. However, even a casual glance at their issues tells a different story. Their biggest difficulty is random parking, where self centred drivers leave vehicles parked in such a way as to block progress; usually in areas of high density housing. Again, down to unreasonable expectations of certain road users, who feel that the general population ought to pay for somewhere they can park their vehicle where they choose to end their journey.

Sounds legit! smile.gif
motormad
There was one pothole which was about 4 inches deep and about 2ft long, about 1ft wide, on a road very near to my house

If you hit it at 30mph it would literally sound like a bomb has gone off.
The road is a 40 limit.
It was also in the direct natural wheel path..


I agree generally round here the roads are not awful but they are not good either

A recent trip to Europe showed how much nicer the roads in France, Belgium, and Germany were.

If they repaired the road properly for let's say £50 / yard rather which lasted 10 years, rather than £30 / yard which lasts 2 years....
Turin Machine
QUOTE (motormad @ May 16 2018, 04:57 PM) *
There was one pothole which was about 4 inches deep and about 2ft long, about 1ft wide, on a road very near to my house

If you hit it at 30mph it would literally sound like a bomb has gone off.
The road is a 40 limit.
It was also in the direct natural wheel path..


I agree generally round here the roads are not awful but they are not good either

A recent trip to Europe showed how much nicer the roads in France, Belgium, and Germany were.

If they repaired the road properly for let's say £50 / yard rather which lasted 10 years, rather than £30 / yard which lasts 2 years....

I agree, even the back roads in France are better than most A roads here. Still driving that golf??
On the edge
QUOTE (motormad @ May 16 2018, 04:57 PM) *
There was one pothole which was about 4 inches deep and about 2ft long, about 1ft wide, on a road very near to my house

If you hit it at 30mph it would literally sound like a bomb has gone off.
The road is a 40 limit.
It was also in the direct natural wheel path..


I agree generally round here the roads are not awful but they are not good either

A recent trip to Europe showed how much nicer the roads in France, Belgium, and Germany were.

If they repaired the road properly for let's say £50 / yard rather which lasted 10 years, rather than £30 / yard which lasts 2 years....


Yes, yet another reason for Brexit!

The speed limit is just that, the limit, not the advisory mean! Drivers in the UK at least are obliged to drive at a speed commensurate with the conditions they find at the time.

If you report your pot hole, do it by phone, they'll tell you the size limits and if justified, will repair it. It works, I've done it.
motormad
QUOTE (Turin Machine @ May 16 2018, 06:01 PM) *
I agree, even the back roads in France are better than most A roads here. Still driving that golf??



No I got rid of it.

Been building this for the last 4 years :

CT-2094-(ZF-6182-13377-1-001)-1 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

Got 395hp from a 2.0 TDI

Now it's in a million pieces on my drive with no dashboard, doors or wings . rolleyes.gif

We went to the Nurburgring in April.
What an experience that was.
Turin Machine
Did you meet Sabine??
motormad
QUOTE (Turin Machine @ May 16 2018, 11:31 PM) *
Did you meet Sabine??


I wish! tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Instead got taken round the ring in one of those Ring Taxi jobs, it was the dogs nuts!!! Defo be going every year from now on.
Andy Capp
People donít expect velodrome standard roads, just roads that are safe enough so that one need not swerve to avoid. In my view OTE is talking absolute myopic ignorant bollox.
On the edge
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ May 17 2018, 08:04 PM) *
People donít expect velodrome standard roads, just roads that are safe enough so that one need not swerve to avoid. In my view OTE is talking absolute myopic ignorant bollox.


But the roads ARE safe enough. Haven't seen any reports locally of this happening certainly in any dangerous way. Similarly, I haven't noticed any significant increase in the road traffic accident statistics where the cause is road conditions. Our local roads authority actually has a standard and holes in the highway which become of greater depth are repaired, within the statutory time limits. Those standards weren't just dreamed up. A little more concentration whilst at the wheel helps of course?
On the edge
Well, Andy Capp, as you'll see from the latest Newbury Advertiser, WBC are on top of the pothole situation, from what Councillor Clifford reported, we are doing better than many other Councils making good the problems compounded by last seasons far worse than average weather. She also pointed out that a pothole that is an immediate hazard is made safe within two hours from time repair is ordered. They are spending 50 percent more on thus sort of routine maintenance as they did last year - yes, more. not less. She went on to say people are noticing they are doing a pretty good job. So, Andy what's the problem?
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