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TallDarkAndHandsome
At least we are civilized enough to allow the Scots a free vote. Spanish bad. Where is the condemnation from Juncker and Tusk? Shame on the EU. Walk of shame Juncker....
newres
I thought we'd just refused one.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Oct 1 2017, 06:10 PM) *
At least we are civilized enough to allow the Scots a free vote. Spanish bad. Where is the condemnation from Juncker and Tusk? Shame on the EU. Walk of shame Juncker....


Thought he was a prick long before this poked it's head above the parapet . The autonomous community of Spain may or may not be in favour of such a plebiscite but , as in any democratic Country , they are entitled to one if a enough public feeling dictates .
Like you said , the Scots will keep having one until they either get their way or give up , but that is their choice and it should be , and is , respected .
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 1 2017, 06:36 PM) *
Thought he was a prick long before this poked it's head above the parapet . The autonomous community of Spain may or may not be in favour of such a plebiscite but , as in any democratic Country , they are entitled to one if a enough public feeling dictates .
Like you said , the Scots will keep having one until they either get their way or give up , but that is their choice and it should be , and is , respected .

No, Theresa May refused one.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 1 2017, 08:37 PM) *
No, Theresa May refused one.


They have had one and I certainly dont remember us sending thousands of riot police up North to smash up the ballot boxes and beat up old ladies. Selective memory? I dare say the Scots will get another one. And when they do we will let democracy decide. Unlike the Spanish Government who want to live in Junckers new USE. Dictatorship.
je suis Charlie
Sounds like another Spanish civil war on the way, just ordered a jumbo sack of popcorn. 🍿🍿🍿
dannyboy
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Oct 1 2017, 09:49 PM) *
Sounds like another Spanish civil war on the way, just ordered a jumbo sack of popcorn. 🍿🍿🍿



popcorn? how common.
newres
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 4 2017, 03:37 PM) *
popcorn? how common.

From Waitrose don't you know.
Andy Capp
Reassuringly expensive.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 4 2017, 04:09 PM) *
From Waitrose don't you know.

Actually, just realized, some left over in the Fortnums hamper.
SirWilliam
Where are the re-moaning federal supporters now ? Bit ironic that those who purport to have liberal , ( small L .....but there again ) , views are in essence supporting the suppression of democracy .
Care to comment Mr Cable ? angry.gif
Andy Capp
I fear state violence would only increase outside the EU.
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 4 2017, 07:38 PM) *
Where are the re-moaning federal supporters now ? Bit ironic that those who purport to have liberal , ( small L .....but there again ) , views are in essence supporting the suppression of democracy .
Care to comment Mr Cable ? angry.gif

How is nationalism liberal?
SirWilliam
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 5 2017, 05:43 AM) *
How is nationalism liberal?



???? huh.gif
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 5 2017, 09:17 AM) *
???? huh.gif

Since when is nationalism something that liberal minded people get excised about? It's not as though the Catalans are discriminated against that I know of?
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 5 2017, 09:17 AM) *
???? huh.gif

Since when is nationalism something that liberal minded people get excised about? It's not as though the Catalans are discriminated against that I know of?
SirWilliam
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 5 2017, 09:30 AM) *
Since when is nationalism something that liberal minded people get excised about? It's not as though the Catalans are discriminated against that I know of?


My point being is that the liberal ,( with both small and large L ) , element of this Country are by and large pro EU and therefore consider Jean-Claude Juncker some sort of deity . His view on the Spanish issue ? Haven't a clue , but he is supposedly looking after the interests of ALL European citizens .
The Catalonians are seeking to distance themselves from a central government , ( in this case Madrid ) as opposed to an increasingly federal Europe but this new found nationalism that is appearing over the whole Continent is the result of centralisation from Brussels .
Do not confuse membership of the Common Market with European Union . People run Countries not political wannabes and National identity should be respected not suppressed .
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 5 2017, 10:51 AM) *
My point being is that the liberal ,( with both small and large L ) , element of this Country are by and large pro EU and therefore consider Jean-Claude Juncker some sort of deity .

You fit in well here with the other Daily Mail readers. rolleyes.gif
Andy Capp
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 5 2017, 10:51 AM) *
My point being is that the liberal ,( with both small and large L ) , element of this Country are by and large pro EU and therefore consider Jean-Claude Juncker some sort of deity .

huh.gif I guess what you mean between the hyperbole, is that 'the liberals' like being in the EU.
je suis Charlie
Show me a 'remoaner' and I'll show you a Libtard.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 6 2017, 12:19 PM) *
You fit in well here with the other Daily Mail readers. rolleyes.gif


Praise indeed . wink.gif ( In the interests of equality it should be added that other propaganda rags are available on the high street ).
Mr Brown
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Oct 6 2017, 01:23 PM) *
huh.gif I guess what you mean between the hyperbole, is that 'the liberals' like being in the EU.


Whereas my history tutor would have it that Mr Gladstone and his Liberals were the party of free trade; which the EU doesn't do outside it's high wall.
SirWilliam
Free trade for all ...........Providing it is between club members . Such restrictive practice is frowned upon by the very people who draw up the rules .
Strange bunch of coves if you ask me . smile.gif
newres
Free and fair trade between countries that recognize human rights and adhere to certain ethical standards. The new order hasn't started well anyway has it with the US over Boeing and food?
Mr Brown
Interesting point that one, for quite a few industries the EU isn't fair. Ironically food is a good example. It became a trade protection society for the original six and globalisation has made it obsolete.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (Mr Brown @ Oct 6 2017, 10:07 PM) *
Interesting point that one, for quite a few industries the EU isn't fair. Ironically food is a good example. It became a trade protection society for the original six and globalisation has made it obsolete.


The natural assumption that a trading cartel is good for all is intrinsically flawed. It benefits those who run such institutions and the crumbs filter down to the working class but in itself it does not create wealth only ring fences it . One of the problems facing the present Government is that "leap of faith" which requires us to withdraw from the comfort zone of European collectiveness and become an independant trading nation once more . May have to start manufacturing things but someone has too .
We are all aware of the difference between trading partners and political subjection , the problem is separating the two . There is absolutely no reason at all , ( apart from the EU's intransigence ) , why we shouldn't remain trading partners without being subject to their federalist control . The free movement of labour conundrum is a red herring .
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 7 2017, 11:38 AM) *
The natural assumption that a trading cartel is good for all is intrinsically flawed. It benefits those who run such institutions and the crumbs filter down to the working class but in itself it does not create wealth only ring fences it . One of the problems facing the present Government is that "leap of faith" which requires us to withdraw from the comfort zone of European collectiveness and become an independant trading nation once more . May have to start manufacturing things but someone has too .
We are all aware of the difference between trading partners and political subjection , the problem is separating the two . There is absolutely no reason at all , ( apart from the EU's intransigence ) , why we shouldn't remain trading partners without being subject to their federalist control . The free movement of labour conundrum is a red herring .

May have to start manufacturing things? Protect the working class? I'd say these two things are mutually exclusive because we will never compete with the cheap labour nations of the Far East etc.

The bit in red. You're in having your cake and eating it land. It's not about federalist control, it's about competing on the same field with the same rules. These arguments go round in circles. We've the two camps - The Boris camp which tells us "it'll be great" without telling us how and we've got the rest that sees we are about to fall off a cliff. Reality has bitten though because May's great coup was her relationship with that moron Trump, which has been exposed for what it really is with Boeing.

TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 7 2017, 03:52 PM) *
May have to start manufacturing things? Protect the working class? I'd say these two things are mutually exclusive because we will never compete with the cheap labour nations of the Far East etc.

The bit in red. You're in having your cake and eating it land. It's not about federalist control, it's about competing on the same field with the same rules. These arguments go round in circles. We've the two camps - The Boris camp which tells us "it'll be great" without telling us how and we've got the rest that sees we are about to fall off a cliff. Reality has bitten though because May's great coup was her relationship with that moron Trump, which has been exposed for what it really is with Boeing.


Now listen up newres or eurores or whatever your non de plume is today. The dye is cast. We are leaving the EU. And Mr Juncker and his cronies. Catalonia... Nothing to see here... Disgrace..More pertinently who was Prime Minister of Luxembourg when dodgy tax deals were brokered with US multi nationals? Oh yes the very same Mr Juncker. You are supporting a dictatorship and what will soon be the USE.��
Blake
Let's look at the facts: Catalonia is akin to South East England. It is the centre of economic dynamism in Spain.

If it leaves Spain, the country will automatically lose 20% of economic activity; a very serious setback.

As many of us know, it was not just Greece that should never have joined the single currency; the books were cooked to get the likes of Spain and Italy in too. So, if Spain lose 20% of its economy, it may well again plunge the Euro into extremely hot water and possibly tip it over into collapse. So, this may well be why the EU's gauleiters would rather see a united Spain.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Blake @ Oct 7 2017, 11:51 PM) *
Let's look at the facts: Catalonia is akin to South East England. It is the centre of economic dynamism in Spain.

If it leaves Spain, the country will automatically lose 20% of economic activity; a very serious setback.

As many of us know, it was not just Greece that should never have joined the single currency; the books were cooked to get the likes of Spain and Italy in too. So, if Spain lose 20% of its economy, it may well again plunge the Euro into extremely hot water and possibly tip it over into collapse. So, this may well be why the EU's gauleiters would rather see a united Spain.


So stuff democracy??? Time to break free. The EU will become a superstate. Its inevitable. And the people of that superstate will lose.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Oct 7 2017, 06:44 PM) *
Now listen up newres or eurores or whatever your non de plume is today. The dye is cast. We are leaving the EU. And Mr Juncker and his cronies. Catalonia... Nothing to see here... Disgrace..More pertinently who was Prime Minister of Luxembourg when dodgy tax deals were brokered with US multi nationals? Oh yes the very same Mr Juncker. You are supporting a dictatorship and what will soon be the USE.��


Steady on old chap , not his fault he can't see the obvious . Little doubt 10 years down the line Europe will look a lot different than today .
My immediate concern is the singular lack of direction from those in charge . European traders need us as much as we need them irrespective of the political carpetbaggers . My gut feeling is that eventually we shall revert back to a free trade agreement , ( Common Market ) ,and the federalists will slink back in their holes .
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 8 2017, 08:01 PM) *
Steady on old chap , not his fault he can't see the obvious . Little doubt 10 years down the line Europe will look a lot different than today .
My immediate concern is the singular lack of direction from those in charge . European traders need us as much as we need them irrespective of the political carpetbaggers . My gut feeling is that eventually we shall revert back to a free trade agreement , ( Common Market ) ,and the federalists will sliwnk back in their holes .


That is all a lot of people including me want. But we can't. It's not part of the "plan".
SirWilliam
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Oct 8 2017, 10:05 PM) *
That is all a lot of people including me want. But we can't. It's not part of the "plan".


Plan ? Do they have one ? rolleyes.gif
You are talking now , I am looking a long way down the line . Remember it was only just over 70 years ago we were slaughtering each other . Indeed this has been the case for the last two thousand years so trading in a civilised manner is rather new .The furthest politicians look is the next general election so to see ten / twenty years hence is asking rather a lot . The general population of Europe will only embrace federal control if it is in their interest . Nothing so far indicates that this will be the case . A population of sixty million is a pretty enticing market and the market gardeners of Southern Europe are not going to turn their back just to appease some faceless bureaucrat's directive .

I see Nick Clegg, ( for younger readers he used to be something in Government ), has published a book on ingratiating ourselves back to the Brussels table . Insomniacs take note . wink.gif
newres
Apparently the Cornish are watching with interest.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 9 2017, 11:35 AM) *
Apparently the Cornish are watching with interest.


Well that will put the kibosh on future productions of Poldark . biggrin.gif
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 9 2017, 11:43 AM) *
Well that will put the kibosh on future productions of Poldark . biggrin.gif

Sadly I doubt it.
SirWilliam
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 9 2017, 12:48 PM) *
Sadly I doubt it.


Not into bare chests and heaving bosoms then ? Or should it be the other way round ? wink.gif
je suis Charlie
"Puigdemont is scheduled to speak on Tuesday at 6pm local time (16:00 GMT) "to report on the current political situation".

He has been warned by a spokesman of Spain's main ruling that he risks arrest if he proceeds with secession.

"History should not be repeated," said Pablo Casado of the People's Party (PP).

"We hope that tomorrow nothing will be declared, because perhaps the one who declares it will end up like the one who declared it 83 years ago."

Casado was referring to Lluis Companys, who proclaimed a short-lived Catalan state in 1934 and was arrested quickly thereafter. Six years later, he was executed by the government of Francisco Franco."

Death threats now, how nice! Good old sunny Spain, land of sand, sea, cold beer, and despots issuing death threats. Holiday destination for all the family.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Oct 9 2017, 11:29 PM) *
"Puigdemont is scheduled to speak on Tuesday at 6pm local time (16:00 GMT) "to report on the current political situation".

He has been warned by a spokesman of Spain's main ruling that he risks arrest if he proceeds with secession.

"History should not be repeated," said Pablo Casado of the People's Party (PP).

"We hope that tomorrow nothing will be declared, because perhaps the one who declares it will end up like the one who declared it 83 years ago."

Casado was referring to Lluis Companys, who proclaimed a short-lived Catalan state in 1934 and was arrested quickly thereafter. Six years later, he was executed by the government of Francisco Franco."

Death threats now, how nice! Good old sunny Spain, land of sand, sea, cold beer, and despots issuing death threats. Holiday destination for all the family.


And "no comment" from the EU. I wonder if they would say anything if the Scots had an unauthorised referendum and we sent the cops up north to beat up rhe Nationalists... I wonder....????
newres
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Oct 10 2017, 08:11 AM) *
And "no comment" from the EU. I wonder if they would say anything if the Scots had an unauthorised referendum and we sent the cops up north to beat up rhe Nationalists... I wonder....????

What would the British government do if Scotland pressed ahead? Our police have proved that they are not beyond beating up people and even murder for defying laws - poll tax, miner's strike etc Does any news happen that you cannot sneak in an anti EU angle however inappropriate?
SirWilliam
QUOTE (newres @ Oct 10 2017, 01:27 PM) *
What would the British government do if Scotland pressed ahead? Our police have proved that they are not beyond beating up people and even murder for defying laws - poll tax, miner's strike etc Does any news happen that you cannot sneak in an anti EU angle however inappropriate?


Is that not the very point TDH is trying to make ? No Country should be immune from being held to rights , the question being "what are their rights " ? If the European Human Rights Act is being contravened then it is up to the guardians of that legislation to intervene .
Now I am sure it doesn't actually say that it is a bad thing to bash the inhabitants of a part of Spain ,but that doesn't mean that the rest of Europe , (inc UK as we are still an EU member ) , doesn't have to voice it's concern . Case of " not in my back yard " I guess . Seems that once again the voice hoi polloi is being ignored by the very people you wish to cosy up to .
newres
QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Oct 10 2017, 02:39 PM) *
Is that not the very point TDH is trying to make ? No Country should be immune from being held to rights , the question being "what are their rights " ? If the European Human Rights Act is being contravened then it is up to the guardians of that legislation to intervene .
Now I am sure it doesn't actually say that it is a bad thing to bash the inhabitants of a part of Spain ,but that doesn't mean that the rest of Europe , (inc UK as we are still an EU member ) , doesn't have to voice it's concern . Case of " not in my back yard " I guess . Seems that once again the voice hoi polloi is being ignored by the very people you wish to cosy up to .

Is it the role of the EU to make political judgments on member states? In general it doesn't really do that. That's not its role is it? Just more silly EU bashing.

If EU legislation is being contravened, that's for the courts surely?
Turin Machine
Europe does NOT want Catalonia to become independent, if it does it will encourage a resurgence in nationalist demands within the EU Bloc, France is fighting calls from Corsica, Flanders want autonomy, Scotland wants out, If the Catalans succeed it will be a nightmare for the jackboot brigade in Brussels. It will do everything in its power to prevent this happening. I feel for Catalonia, I really do, lets not forget it's not so very long ago that Franco marched into Barcelona and executed 10,000 republican men and women in five days.
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Oct 10 2017, 07:26 PM) *
Europe does NOT want Catalonia to become independent, if it does it will encourage a resurgence in nationalist demands within the EU Bloc, France is fighting calls from Corsica, Flanders want autonomy, Scotland wants out, If the Catalans succeed it will be a nightmare for the jackboot brigade in Brussels. It will do everything in its power to prevent this happening. I feel for Catalonia, I really do, lets not forget it's not so very long ago that Franco marched into Barcelona and executed 10,000 republican men and women in five days.


That doesn't matter for the pro EU brigade. History means nothing to them (unless its ours then we are colonial racist pigs).
SirWilliam
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Oct 10 2017, 07:31 PM) *
That doesn't matter for the pro EU brigade. History means nothing to them (unless its ours then we are colonial racist pigs).


Oink Oink ! laugh.gif
blackdog
I am trying to remember an EU response when the British police set about the striking miners, or the infamous attack on a traveller convoy - I suspect it was silent on the issue. Heavy handed policing happens from time to time, in general outsiders don't protest too much unless it gets to be a habit.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (blackdog @ Oct 13 2017, 12:00 AM) *
I am trying to remember an EU response when the British police set about the striking miners, or the infamous attack on a traveller convoy - I suspect it was silent on the issue. Heavy handed policing happens from time to time, in general outsiders don't protest too much unless it gets to be a habit.

Not to mention the ketteling by the police a few years back.
je suis Charlie
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Oct 13 2017, 04:09 PM) *
Not to mention the ketteling by the police a few years back.


Can't make Omelettes without breaking eggs.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Oct 13 2017, 07:27 PM) *
Can't make Omelettes without breaking eggs.

Au contraire: https://youtu.be/E_nDXxozWb4
TallDarkAndHandsome
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Oct 13 2017, 04:09 PM) *
Not to mention the ketteling by the police a few years back.


Civil unrest is a bit different to beating people up for trying to vote.
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