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Biker1
Well?
Did they?
Same question goes for the teachers.
It is all very well for folks to make these bold statements but are they true?
Strafin
As I understand it, there is to be changes only made to future pensions - anything in the kitty already is safe. The public sector enjoy brilliant pensions at everyone elses expense and unfortunatly as the sector has grown in numbers; the pot has to go a little further. I have only just got my first pension at thirty five as the government now forces companies to have a scheme, anyone who has the offer of a backed up pension should consider themselves quite lucky. Pensions are an investment, and like any other investment are subject to fluctuations and risk.
On the edge
Sadly, the pension fund was abused. I seem to recall they were letting people go on a pension at 50 - simply because they were redundant. In some cases these 'pensioners' returned to similar well paid positions with other public sector organisations! The pensions in public service have traditionally been very good, quite unmatched by anything on offer in much of the private sector. Even where they were, company consolidation, liquidation and Gordon Brown have left lots of disadvantaged people. The public sector gravy train has to stop - firemen and teachers should not be exempt from economic reality.
Biker1
The teachers are always saying that they work at weekends and school holidays.
Why don't they go on strike then? tongue.gif
On the edge
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 5 2013, 07:37 PM) *
The teachers are always saying that they work at weekends and school holidays.
Why don't they go on strike then? tongue.gif

Apparently they are in some places! Working holidays and weekends only makes up for the very short days. rolleyes.gif
NWNREADER
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 5 2013, 08:26 PM) *
Working holidays and weekends only makes up for the very short days. rolleyes.gif


As I know some teachers I also know only too well the 'short hours and long holidays' are so far from the truth I wonder how the myth endures.......
On the edge
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Oct 5 2013, 08:31 PM) *
As I know some teachers I also know only too well the 'short hours and long holidays' are so far from the truth I wonder how the myth endures.......

So do I, whining and winging about every suggestion or changes doesn't help! I don't known of any other group of workers who want their working lives so prescribed.
The Hatter
My ex was a teacher; after a night out with her mates you'd want to slit your wrist. All they talked about was school and how bad it all was.
Exhausted
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 5 2013, 05:04 PM) *
Sadly, the pension fund was abused. I seem to recall they were letting people go on a pension at 50 - simply because they were redundant. In some cases these 'pensioners' returned to similar well paid positions with other public sector organisations! The pensions in public service have traditionally been very good, quite unmatched by anything on offer in much of the private sector. Even where they were, company consolidation, liquidation and Gordon Brown have left lots of disadvantaged people. The public sector gravy train has to stop - firemen and teachers should not be exempt from economic reality.


It is fairly common for private companies to offer early retirement, usually at 55 with a certain minimum employment term. A pension of this type would pay an annual amount according to age and years served. There usually is an opportunity to defer until 65 and build the amount according to the profit level of the pension fund.
There would be nothing in the rules which prevented the new pensioner going on to other employment.
On the edge
QUOTE (Exhausted @ Oct 6 2013, 11:41 AM) *
It is fairly common for private companies to offer early retirement, usually at 55 with a certain minimum employment term. A pension of this type would pay an annual amount according to age and years served. There usually is an opportunity to defer until 65 and build the amount according to the profit level of the pension fund.
There would be nothing in the rules which prevented the new pensioner going on to other employment.

Very few private companies, and then mostly very large ones. Yes, they all have rules, but the public service rules have been bent to breaking point. We've had some great examples locally over the years, head teacher going at 49, senior head of department who took the job as WBC was created, disappeared on a pension a short time later and returned working for a consultancy! Great work if you can get it, but as the big private sector firms discovered a good while back; the good times are over.
Exhausted
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 6 2013, 01:46 PM) *
Very few private companies, and then mostly very large ones. Yes, they all have rules, but the public service rules have been bent to breaking point. We've had some great examples locally over the years, head teacher going at 49, senior head of department who took the job as WBC was created, disappeared on a pension a short time later and returned working for a consultancy! Great work if you can get it, but as the big private sector firms discovered a good while back; the good times are over.


But surely the're not on a full pension as if they had worked until 65 and are getting pro rata to what they had contributed during their employ. If it is the reduced amount, then I would say they are entitled. It's a bit of a minefield the private and the government sponsored pension schemes.
On the edge
The key issue is the final salary scheme; which very few, if any, private sector firms can provide. Yet it still reigns supreme in the public sector. I'd have rather more sympathy if they'd suffered the same treatment over the past few years. Of course, private firms don't have national collective bargaining powers, or paid for trades union representation. Never mind, we are all in this together....
Biker1
But DO the striking firefighters and teachers have the "overwhelming" support of the public??
Perhaps I should have put a poll on this thread?
On the edge
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 6 2013, 08:17 PM) *
But DO the striking firefighters and teachers have the "overwhelming" support of the public??
Perhaps I should have put a poll on this thread?

Sorry Biker!

No they don't - certainly not from the public I associate with every day!
spartacus
Nor me, or my mates I drink with. Firemen push the image of them running into infernos to save young children as being part of their daily working experience. Some have had to do that and I'm not knocking them. But one of my drinking buddies became a fireman after leaving the Forces and in 13 years of service never actually had to deal with a 'full on blaze' in his entire working career. Damping down grass fires, attending car accidents, putting out smoking chimneys.. That was more his experience. Oh and catching up on his sleep while on shift. That was his bread and butter. The 'fire' stuff was an inconvenience that got in the way of his other job he was also holding down...

Nice job if you can get it.
Biker1
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 6 2013, 08:52 PM) *
No they don't - certainly not from the public I associate with every day!

Same here, so from where does Mr. Whitman draw his conclusions then? blink.gif
dannyboy
QUOTE (spartacus @ Oct 6 2013, 10:32 PM) *
Nice job if you can get it.

Wouldn't they have you?
On the edge
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 7 2013, 06:11 AM) *
Same here, so from where does Mr. Whitman draw his conclusions then? blink.gif


I'd hazard a guess it was the same way that the Hunt claims 'popular support' - because the public like stroking the doggies at Newbury show.

This tactic is used when the promotors have no other valid justifications for their actions.

So his statement has no credence, save with the press, who like to use such comments to pad out stories. Just like when they ask mothers of convicted crims. What they think of their offspring - even Mrs Kray had a good word for her Reggie and Ronnie.
Biker1
They're at it again!
"however, union officials have now said that the first strike did not achieve the desired outcome." rolleyes.gif
" firefighters could not be more serious about protecting public safety". blink.gif
Looks like we are in for more of the same..........“However, more strikes cannot be ruled out if that’s what it takes to protect public and firefighter safety from these ludicrous attacks.”
Are the proposals "ludicrous" and would public safety be under threat if they were implemented?
I don't think many working people have escaped changes to their pension scheme (if they have one) and the overall trend to work later in life.
Perhaps the Fire Service should be privatised? wink.gif
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 11 2013, 10:17 AM) *
They're at it again!
"however, union officials have now said that the first strike did not achieve the desired outcome." rolleyes.gif
" firefighters could not be more serious about protecting public safety". blink.gif
Looks like we are in for more of the same..........“However, more strikes cannot be ruled out if that’s what it takes to protect public and firefighter safety from these ludicrous attacks.”
Are the proposals "ludicrous" and would public safety be under threat if they were implemented?
I don't think many working people have escaped changes to their pension scheme (if they have one) and the overall trend to work later in life.
Perhaps the Fire Service should be privatised? wink.gif

I think you'll find it isn't just about pensions.

Biker1
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 11 2013, 12:19 PM) *
I think you'll find it isn't just about pensions.

They claim that it is!
(Unless the newspaper report is wrong of course!) tongue.gif
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 11 2013, 12:46 PM) *
They claim that it is!
(Unless the newspaper report is wrong of course!) tongue.gif


Surely not. Would a news paper do that?

The Fire Brigades Union has organised a national demonstration in London on Wednesday 16 October. This is an opportunity for firefighters, our families and friends to tell the Westminster government to stop cutting our fire and rescue service and to provide decent pensions for all.

Wasn't Supergarvie on the case a few years back when Newbury lost a pump?
On the edge
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 11 2013, 12:19 PM) *
I think you'll find it isn't just about pensions.


The only other issue the Neanderthal FBU is moaning about is that firemen might have to work beyond 50. Apparently no one would want to be rescued by a fireman in his 60s. Oh no? My grandfather was a 60 year old plus London fireman during the blitz. Can't recall either him or (hearing about) his 'customers' complaining. Fire Service staffs are fast losing credibility let alone sympathy.
dannyboy
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 11 2013, 02:30 PM) *
The only other issue the Neanderthal FBU is moaning about is that firemen might have to work beyond 50. Apparently no one would want to be rescued by a fireman in his 60s. Oh no? My grandfather was a 60 year old plus London fireman during the blitz. Can't recall either him or (hearing about) his 'customers' complaining. Fire Service staffs are fast losing credibility let alone sympathy.



Ah, the grass is always greener, eh?
dannyboy
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 11 2013, 02:30 PM) *
The only other issue the Neanderthal FBU is moaning about is that firemen might have to work beyond 50. Apparently no one would want to be rescued by a fireman in his 60s. Oh no? My grandfather was a 60 year old plus London fireman during the blitz. Can't recall either him or (hearing about) his 'customers' complaining. Fire Service staffs are fast losing credibility let alone sympathy.

Teachers are all out next week to. Fuel prices up almost 10%


A winter of discontent!
JeffG
There's a teachers strike? All of them? Or just the usual NUT lot?
dannyboy
QUOTE (JeffG @ Oct 11 2013, 03:35 PM) *
There's a teachers strike? All of them? Or just the usual NUT lot?

Thursday. 17th. Winchcombe School is shut for instance.

No idea which Union.
Nothing Much
I've heard that bar staff are taking action on Monday 14th October at The Swan.
"Due to unforeseen circumstances..." The NWN were un-reliably informed today.
ce
On the edge
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 11 2013, 02:34 PM) *
Ah, the grass is always greener, eh?


Nicely cut and boarders weeded too!
On the edge
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 11 2013, 02:35 PM) *
Teachers are all out next week to. Fuel prices up almost 10%


A winter of discontent!


How short our memories!

Sad really, public servants actually had good reason to complain back then. If memory serves, the Trades Unions drove a coach and horses through the Labour governments pay policy for private sector car workers etc. They got pay rises which would seem unbelievable these days. When the public sector direct labour force wanted a bit more, the Labour government refused. Mrs Thatcher was the result!
On the edge
QUOTE (Nothing Much @ Oct 11 2013, 03:46 PM) *
I've heard that bar staff are taking action on Monday 14th October at The Swan.
"Due to unforeseen circumstances..." The NWN were un-reliably informed today.
ce


Can we help settle the dispute? Beer and sandwiches on the management!!!
Biker1
FGW next eh OTE? tongue.gif
On the edge
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 12 2013, 09:01 AM) *
FGW next eh OTE? tongue.gif


Well Biker1 given the way FGW treat their customers, I'd even be willing to contribute to the strike fund! Zero hour contracts are a vile concept and one of the nastiest manifestations of our sick society.

Our poor regulatory arrangements have just rewarded FGW another 2 years; reward for failing.

Would be interesting to see what our feather bedded firefighters would make of FGW conditions. In my view, continued Trades Union focus on higher grade public service conditions significantly damages and detracts from the very real issues in other places.
Biker1
Teachers go on strike "with heavy heart" laugh.gif
"Both unions are in dispute with the Government over what they claim are excessive workloads and bureaucracy, cuts and changes to pensions and performance-related pay"
All things that folks in the private sector have had to endure in recent years?
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 17 2013, 05:55 PM) *
Teachers go on strike "with heavy heart" laugh.gif
"Both unions are in dispute with the Government over what they claim are excessive workloads and bureaucracy, cuts and changes to pensions and performance-related pay"
All things that folks in the private sector have had to endure in recent years?


but bent over & took it with not a murmur.
Biker1
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 17 2013, 09:54 PM) *
but bent over & took it with not a murmur.

I think most had no choice?
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 18 2013, 08:47 AM) *
I think most had no choice?


I didn't realise we had Gulags in this country. Labour mobility is pretty good in the UK.
Biker1
Put it this way.
In my job I had to put up with excessive workloads and bureaucracy, cuts and changes to pensions and performance-related pay.
Yes I know I could have resigned, but I would then need another job!
Frying pan into the fire?
Unless, of course, I became a teacher or found work with the Council! wink.gif
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 18 2013, 09:25 AM) *
Put it this way.
In my job I had to put up with excessive workloads and bureaucracy, cuts and changes to pensions and performance-related pay.
Yes I know I could have resigned, but I would then need another job!
Frying pan into the fire?
Unless, of course, I became a teacher or found work with the Council! wink.gif



So why don't you become a public sector worker if it is so great?

You can't moan about one group of people deciding that they have had enough & getting to gether to sort it out if you yourself didn't bother.
The Hatter
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 18 2013, 09:34 AM) *
So why don't you become a public sector worker if it is so great?

You can't moan about one group of people deciding that they have had enough & getting to gether to sort it out if you yourself didn't bother.

I think it's the protection public people get that is the issue. No teacher is likely to loose much going on strike and there isn't a boss finding foreign teachers to come and do the job for less. Let's even work out so teachers are on zero hours. Have two weeks holiday and no sick. I can't be a teacher because you need a degree to look after six year olds!
Biker1
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 18 2013, 09:34 AM) *
You can't moan about one group of people deciding that they have had enough & getting to gether to sort it out if you yourself didn't bother.

laugh.gif Yes I can!
What should I have done, had a one man strike? laugh.gif
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 18 2013, 09:46 AM) *
laugh.gif Yes I can!
What should I have done, had a one man strike? laugh.gif

were you the only one not happy with the changes where you work then?
dannyboy
QUOTE (The Hatter @ Oct 18 2013, 09:42 AM) *
I think it's the protection public people get that is the issue. No teacher is likely to loose much going on strike and there isn't a boss finding foreign teachers to come and do the job for less. Let's even work out so teachers are on zero hours. Have two weeks holiday and no sick. I can't be a teacher because you need a degree to look after six year olds!



There you go you see - because not everyone can do what they do, they can use that to their advantage. Smart.
Biker1
I think on the whole the private sector has had to accept changes in working practices and conditions over the last 20 or so years.
Why should the public sector, including firefighters and teachers, paid by our taxes, not have to accept the same?
On the edge
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 18 2013, 09:51 AM) *
There you go you see - because not everyone can do what they do, they can use that to their advantage. Smart.


From what I've seen with my boy, the mums that help out are far better than the teachers. Thick rather than smart. I've yet to meet a primary school teacher who my firm would employ, no matter what scrap of paper they had.
dannyboy
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Oct 18 2013, 09:53 AM) *
I think on the whole the private sector has had to accept changes in working practices and conditions over the last 20 or so years.
Why should the public sector, including firefighters and teachers, paid by our taxes, not have to accept the same?



I think you'll find they have accepted some radical changes, but they don't make the news. There comes a time when enough change is enough.

Sometimes you have to stand up for your rights.

I notice you avioded the 'if the public sector is such a great place to work.......' question.
dannyboy
QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 18 2013, 09:57 AM) *
From what I've seen with my boy, the mums that help out are far better than the teachers. I've yet to meet a primary school teacher who my firm would employ, no matter what scrap of paper they had.

The bitterness, such butterness.
On the edge
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 18 2013, 09:58 AM) *
I think you'll find they have accepted some radical changes, but they don't make the news. There comes a time when enough change is enough.

Sometimes you have to stand up for your rights.

I notice you avioded the 'if the public sector is such a great place to work.......' question.


Great lesson for the kids, look after number one and stuff everyone else.
On the edge
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Oct 18 2013, 09:59 AM) *
The bitterness, such butterness.


Ironically, only for a couple of my neighbours who lost a days pay each to look after their kids. Oh well, there is always the food bank. As usual, the 'haves' are sponging off the 'have nots' just to get their own way. Our latest international comparators show UK education at rock bottom, says it all really.
Andy Capp
The thing with the teachers' strike is that it will make no difference to their plight. However, I agree in so far that people should stand up for what they believe is right; it is human nature to do so.
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