Seeing as the Government are considering allowing drivers to break the law a little bit by allowing them to park on yellow lines for 15 minutes in an effort to improve the situation on the High Street, can we also assume that we'll be allowed to speed by just ever so slightly and get away with it, provided that we can say we were on our way to a SALE on said High Street and didn't want to miss out on the bargains?

It's all part of the whole buying/shopping process. I mean, us rushing to get TO the shopping is the same as us dumping our cars anywhere so that can DO the shopping... wouldn't you think?

Hope it gets approved, I really do. I can't wait to dump my car in various spots around town just to cause a bit of temporary gridlock....

I think you would be hard pushed to find many spots (other than main through routes) where parking on a double yellow line would cause gridlock. In many cases they only exist to get people to park in council car parks.

I like your thinking. Perhaps Big Eric will legalise a bit of shoplifting - the first fifteen minutes nicking is free.

What about outside schools? Preferably in areas where young kids dart across the road... Acceptable? (Schools aren't just located in isolated rural areas, some are near High Streets and shops - not necessarily talking about Newbury)

And whether gridlock happens or not to a certain extent depends on the size of the vehicle parking on the yellow lines. Lickle Fiat 500, no problem. Dirty great Land Rover or Shogun it starts to get more of a problem. And remember that it won't be just one individual vehicle taking advantage of this 15 (25 minute) ruling.. There could be a Land Rover parked in front of a Shogun, parked in front of a line of 20 Fiat 500's.... Continuous line of parking and all potentially legal under these proposals....

...this isn't necessarily a joke, did you see the NWN court report about a girl who reported the theft of her things which, on investigation, the Police found she'd lifted in the first place!!

I was advised by a parking official in Northbrook Street that you are allowed to park on double yellow lines for a short period of time already, I forget whether she said 5 or 10 minutes. Perhaps that was an exception rather than the rule?

Link

So you see no problem with unrestricted parking anywhere (except on through routes)?
A sort of parking free for all?
I think parking is restricted for many reasons other than preventing gridlock.
(And one of my pet hates is paying to park my car. It costs enough to keep them moving let alone pay for them while they are standing still!)

Not the most helpful of links.

With any yellow line (single or double) you're allowed to stop on them for as long as it takes to allow passengers to board or alight (it's a standard exemption that's permitted nationally on all traffic parking orders) However if there's also a ban on loading (denoted by short yellow blips on the kerb edge) then that exemption doesn't apply.

Blue Badge Holders can park on yellow lines for up to three hours. If you're loading or unloading you're allowed to park on yellow lines as long as you need to to complete the task (however it must be continuously loading - not stopping every 10 minutes for a cup of tea and a fag)

It's because of those exemptions that Northbrook St is packed with parked (disabled) cars and vans every morning.


Also, since councils have taken on issuing tickets for parking, all appeals are heard by the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. TPT don't like to be called on to judge on arguments between a disgruntled vehcle owner contesting a ticket who says "they were not 'parking' on a yellow line, they were 'loading'..." and so it has issued guidelines to all council parking offices that they should allow a 5 minute 'grace' period before issuing a ticket. That 5 minutes allows the ticket wardens to observe the car for 5 minutes to confirm that the owner wasn't actually loading. As far as I know, most of the software that ticket wardens have issued now doesn't allow them to issue and print out a ticket (for that type of parking on yellow line offence which has it's own Offence Code) until the 5 minute observation period has elapsed from first punching in the vehicle registration. So you unofficially already have a 5 minute 'free parking' period.


Upping that to 15 minutes will mean that ticket wardens will just be stood around for an additional 10 minutes longer than they currently are - doing nothing.

Looking at some of the comments on this thread, you would think the whole double yellow line world was proposed to be opened up on a galactic level!

It's because of those exemptions that Northbrook St is packed with parked (disabled) cars

LOL - yeah, right.....

Pickles would do better to instigate a review of double yellows - and remove all those that are not there for good reasons of safety or traffic flow.

I just can't see this 'double yellow line' discussion being in the public interest.

In my opinion the introduction of a 15 minute grace period is going to add too much of a burden on traffic wardens, policing it isn't feasible.

And removing or re-assessing all DYLs on the UK road network just won't be worth the effort. They are where they are and in my experience they aren't causing any problems at all.

Let's move on to the next debate.

Now that would be something useful.

You're right... Excellent idea Claude... You start....

(my breath is bated and I can hardly contain my excitement at the prospect of a different topic to mull over. Why oh why did they ever get rid of the up-and-down car-eating bollards.)

They're still there Spartacus, just no buses to follow any more!!

Regarding your post on allowances when parking on yellow lines..................is this documented anywhere or just here-say from a CEO?

Good idea.
How about allotments?

Stopping on yellow lines to let passengers get in/out of your vehicle is in The Highway Code. There is no defined time limit on this, so if you need to get bags/luggage loaded then that is permitted.

look under 'waiting restrictions'

3 hours parking on double yellow lines for disabled is a standard allowance
blue badge scheme

The 5 minutes observation period before tickets can be issued doesn't seem to be listed on the WBC site, but a quick google throws up and number of councils that post their parking protocols and procedures. Parking on yellow lines is a Code 01 offence. Note the observation periods are listed on this one from Dacorum Borough Council and this one (page 2)Hammersmith & Fulham. There's also the Parking Practices Notes issued by the BPA (British Parking Association) BPA waffle

Thanks.

What are the rules for parking on the green cycle lanes, St John's Road for instance. Do the rules apply to blue badge holders.

The three hour rule on yellow lines for blue badge holders just goes to prove that the whole restricted parking rules are a nonsense. A disabled car is the same size as a private car so the reason for the line(to keep traffic flowing ?) seems to be there just, as was said earlier, to force drivers into pay parks. The whole parking thing has been creeping up on us over the years and we haven't noticed. (Apart from Newbury today users of course).

Life is like the Matrix.
Some rules can be bent. Others can be broken.

Good question, and my guess is there are no rules. The lower end of Andover Road is the same, with people parking half on the pavement and half over the green cycle lane. I guess it comes down to what parking restrictions exist - single or double yellow lines, and if there are none then you can park wherever you like. Is my interpretation correct, or are these people breaking a law?

And what's the situation with parking half on the pavement and half on the road, is that allowed? What if it makes it difficult for mothers pushing pushchairs, or disabled folk in wheelchairs?

Is it illegal to drive in a cycle lane (obviously when there are no cycles using it) as I see many drivers doing that?

I avoid cycle lanes because of the pot holes,broken bottles, manhole covers that stick up...That is why cycles are meant to use them.
Actually I've just been watching a short TfL video on Youtube and it would seem that the advanced green box is enforceable with fines and 3 points, nothing about the lanes though.

As for parking on pavements. Very short term OK, but all day probably comes under selfishness.

There are areas where residents can park on pavements but they are marked out and signed.
ce

I know they say that every day's a school day, but this is ridiculous. Some of us really need to brush up on our Highway Code.

Cycles Lanes are covered in Rule 63 and Rule 140 of The Highway Code (part)





The cycle lanes near the St Johns Roundabout are all broken white lines and so they are advisory rather than mandatory, so you COULD technically park on them - but then you COULD get prosecuted for parking dangerously on the approach to a roundabout.


Parking half on and half off the 'pavement' is NOT OK. It's covered by legislation as a potential obstruction offence (though getting the local boys in blue to enforce is a non-starter unless you actually have to climb over the roof of a car to get past). There is no offence of 'parking on the footway', so unless a vehicle is causing a serious problem for pedestrians to get past the ONLY other offence the police can issue a ticket for is the one of 'driving on the footway', which is an offence under Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835 (That's right 1835! A law that was introduced to control those well-to-do dandies rushing around on their velocipedes (or 'Dandy Horses') is still used to this day and now controls Yummy Mummies in their 4x4's) - although the police hardly bother with that either..... They have to have seen the offence taking place so they can prosecue the driver rather than ticket the car....


The 1835 Act states "If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot passengers; or shall wilfully lead or drive any horse, as$, sheep, mule, swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge, upon any such footpath or causeway; or shall tether any horse, as$, mule, swine, or cattle, on any highway, so as to suffer or permit the tethered animal to be thereon." then they're guilty of the offence. It's been updated a bit.. Instead of horses it's things with horses under the bonnet.

Thanks for that. Could have looked up myself (as you had to before you knew the answer! ) I suppose but was in a hurry!.
"Some of us!"
I like the rule covering broken white lines cycle lanes (which most of them are) and the word "unavoidable".
Probably makes it difficult to bring a prosecution? (as if one ever has been?)

If that is the case, why do the council keep drawing parking spaces half on and half off the pavement, Newtown Road for example?

There is certainly some mixed messages when it comes to working it out.
http://www.confused.com/car-insurance/arti...ut-for-new-laws

It says in the Highway Code (yes here I go quoting again! ) "You MUST NOT park partially or wholly on the pavement in London, and should not do so elsewhere unless signs permit it."
I presume that the dotted parking lines in the cases you state must mean that signs permit it?

My understanding is that councils outside London may put up prohibition signs for parking on pavements without first seeking government approval, but there is no national law regards parking on pavements. Only London prohibits parking on pavements by law.

I believe that 'should not' is not the same as 'must not'. 'Must not' is absolute, but 'should not' is another form of 'not recommend', i.e. although not acceptable, there may be times or circumstances where something is acceptable.

OK how about this one then?? ......................
Rule 145

"You MUST NOT drive on or over a pavement, footpath or bridleway except to gain lawful access to property, or in the case of an emergency."

To park on the pavement you must have driven on it??

That is right, but there is no law preventing you from doing so. The HC is not law, it is effectively a (occasionally flawed) reference guide to laws and good practice. It can also be used as evidence for proof of liability in a court of law.

Laws Highways Act 1835 sect 72 & Road Traffic Act 1988 sect 34
EDIT - Just realised an act dating from 1835 (well before cars) still in force!


"Many of the rules in The Highway Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’"

I guess that is a good point, but to prosecute you would have to prove that, which is probably why it doesn't get enforced.

Note the word many.


To prosecute, you have to have broken the law. The Highway Code is not the law, but reliance upon it might be used as evidence in court.


At the end of the day, it is fact that there is no blanket law in the UK and outside London preventing an 'ordinary' car being parked on or partially on the pavement. However, if a policeman sees you do it, you can get a fixed penalty notice, but unlike speeding, you are not obliged to tell the officer who parked the car.

I suppose you could claim that it had been dropped there by crane!

No - I agree the Highway Code is not the law BUT the words MUST in it refer to the law and if you break that rule you are breaking the law.

Yes but in the context of the thread, the words 'must not' refer to 'driving'; not 'being parked'.

Yep, "driving" on the pavement!!

Yes, so a car 'parked', is not a car being 'driven'.

Don't you have to drive in order to park?

And I think the last few posts sum up the problem perfectly!

A car lifted off a low-loader by crane would be parked but wouldn't have been driven.

Why is this discussion still ongoing anyway, I thought it was documented earlier on in the thread that the police will hardly ever, if at all, prosecute the driver of a car parked half on the pavement, so it's all pretty academic.

Usually, yes, but 'being parked' is not 'being driven'. There is no compulsion to admit to driving or parking a car on, or partially on, a pavement; nor is there a requirement to move it off unless it is causing an obstruction.

Correct. In Reading BC they're trialling a ban of footway and grass verge parking (see here for maps etc Reading BC parking) They've chosen some pretty wide roads for this experimental Order. They haven't been brave enough to include the narrow roads where if that sort of thing was brought in residents would start parking FULLY on the road instead and then NOBODY would get past. Don't think it will catch on too widely.


Also correct.





Or "I'm sorry ociffer, but we wuz all a bit drunk when we drove home last night. Can't member who droved"

Claude you seem to be very good at deciding when and if a topic should end.
If others wish to continue the debate then it's up to them.
You do not have to join in or even read it if you don't agree!!

walking along Northbrook St this morning I noticed a few tickets being dished out.....

I assume that was before 10am when it became pedestrianised. However, where does the remit of the Green Meanie end. If the vehicle is parked fully on the pavement, even if there are yellow lines, is it outside their responsibility therefore they are not allowed to issue a parking fine as the vehicle is not on the highway.

So, where is the edge of the footpath in Northbrook Street. I haven't nipped down to have a look, but I thought that there was a line of inset paving blocks which defined the footpath and was originally intended for when it was partially pedestrianised. If so and the car is inside that line, assuming said line exists, is it technically on the footpath.
It is a bit rough for WBC to slap a ticket on in that street anyway, parking is already restricted as it stops after 10 am and the street is wide enough for a couple of HGV's to park opposite each other. What then are the rules in Northbrook Street regarding loading and unloading. If I have loaded my wallet in HSBC, does that count for a concession.

There are no yellow lines along the 'at any time' section of Northbrook St.

A nice little earner I'd imaging - given that most folk have no clue what road signs actually mean...

I think that there was a legal dispensation granted to WBC regarding the cobbled areas so that they weren't spoiled with yellow paint. There are signs which are displayed however which denote that the area is a no parking zone. This includes the market place evenings and overnight. My question about the sidewalk markings in Northbrook Street was a little tongue in cheek however as I'm sure the parking is a blanket cover but some of the shops do not have a rear delivery area so who is allowed to park to deliver. As I don't park there I can't say I've looked at the signage but I'm sure there must be someone out there with a camera phone who could capture an image for us.

as far as I understand it legitimate deliveries are allowed to unlod & load. Also, those with a blue disabled badge can park for upto three hours.

everyone else, taxi drivers included, can only stop to let passengers alight.

What it does not allow however is drivers to park on the 'pavements', even if they are doing one of the three legitimate things above.

The signage simply has the red circle & bar on a yellow back ground, followed by the words 'Pedestrian Zone - At Any Time'. ie, even if traffic is allowed down the road, parking is still prohibited.