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x2lls
Perhaps our MP's are finally going in the right direction.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...r.html#comments
Strafin
Whilst I think good on them for refusing, I can't help but think that they are making one rule for them and one rule for everyone else.
Andy Capp
Hypocrites, the lot of us. We are comfortable because someone, or something else is suffering. Halal meat is abominable, but then so is the way we treat animals.
Cognosco
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 1 2012, 10:50 PM) *
Hypocrites, the lot of us. We are comfortable because someone, or something else is suffering. Halal meat is abominable, but then so is the way we treat animals.


Laws were passed to ensure animals suffered the least amount of suffering before slaughter if it does not meet these requirements then it should be banned.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Cognosco @ Jan 1 2012, 10:56 PM) *
Laws were passed to ensure animals suffered the least amount of suffering before slaughter if it does not meet these requirements then it should be banned.

Agreed, but should we be killing them in the first place?
xjay1337
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 1 2012, 10:58 PM) *
Agreed, but should we be killing them in the first place?


Well considering we are at the top of the food chain and there are minerals and what not in meat that, if we had not been meat eaters, would not have made us into the awesome specimens we all are today...I'd say so.

Cows don't have feelings. When was the last time you went to group therapy and Dorris the Cow was there crying her little hoofs off because Billy the Bull cheated on her, or how she's not lactating properly? Only cats, dogs and wildebeast deserve compassion.

In this country we are not a halal-consumer. It doesn't meat (see what I did there) with our laws about animal safety and should not be followed. I appreciate these Muslim MPs are British, fair enough, but it's a British government building and they are able to do what they want.

I think they should offer it but it should be on a fixed basis, as in if you want the Halal meat you must agree to have it, otherwise it would be brought in and thrown out due to people not eating it.


If I were the leader, I'd just put a sign up saying "Halal meat" when in actual fact it was the same stuff I was giving everyone else.
Religion is a silly thing, it's great to believe in a higher power when you run out of logical and scientifically provable answers to lifes problems but things like how the animal you kill has to suffer more than necessary is just stupid and people shouldn't kick up a stink about it.

After all, I don't suppose British MPs in the Islamic government (if there are any) get a Full English as and when they want.

Talking of food, I need to beat my meat. It's misbehaving again.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (xjay1337 @ Jan 1 2012, 11:20 PM) *
Well considering we are at the top of the food chain and there are minerals and what not in meat that, if we had not been meat eaters, would not have made us into the awesome specimens we all are today...I'd say so.

We also have the compassion and the recognition when creatures are in distress. We are also the only creatures (that I am aware of) that cook food. Perhaps we are not meant to eat 'them'?

Cows, et al, mourn.
NWNREADER
Humans are omnivores by evolution - hence we have canine teeth as well as molars. There is other physiological support for meat in the diet being a norm. Most of what we eat can be eaten raw - including meat - but it can be a bit of a chew. Currently only celery is negative benefit; if more was eaten uncooked that would change. Cooking also cleans food and removes harmful bacteria.
Next we will be making cats and dogs vegetarian......

Religious rites for the sacrifice/slaughter of animals for consumption are only relevant to followers of that religion. It is not realistic to require every food provider to offer each religion food prepared according to religious rite. There are plenty of Halal/Kosher etc restaurants within reach of Parliament.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Jan 1 2012, 11:59 PM) *
Cooking also cleans food and removes harmful bacteria.

Exactly.

QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Jan 1 2012, 11:59 PM) *
Next we will be making cats and dogs vegetarian......

Both eat vegetation by nature, and their dry food is most probably not mainly meat.
NWNREADER
Making............

Dry pet food is not exactly natural diet and can be harmful if not administered correctly.
Cats chew grass as a digestive aid, not as a food. Not sure which dogs consume vegetation. Either way, my observation was more directed towards the compulsion to not eat meat, and the range of vegetable foods that would involve...

As for the agreement re cooking, I'm confused (again!!!)....
Andy Capp
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Jan 2 2012, 12:19 AM) *
Dry pet food is not exactly natural diet and can be harmful if not administered correctly.

Well, I'd usually insist on them using the mouth! unsure.gif vets, who I am sure only have the welfare of the animal at heart tongue.gif , usually try to impress dry food on us!

QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Jan 2 2012, 12:19 AM) *
Cats chew grass as a digestive aid, not as a food. Not sure which dogs consume vegetation.

Presumably you haven't owned a dog; they eat anything and everything.

QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Jan 2 2012, 12:19 AM) *
As for the agreement re cooking, I'm confused (again!!!)....

We have to cook to stop it from harming us. Our incisors are not ideal meat masticators.
Penelope
Cats are Carnivores, do your homework. Any way if we are going to kill any animal for food it should be done in the most humane manner possible. Halal meat is an abomination and should not be allowed in what is still a mainly non muslim country.
NWNREADER
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 2 2012, 12:30 AM) *
Well, I'd usually insist on them using the mouth! unsure.gif vets, who I am sure only have the welfare of the animal at heart tongue.gif , usually try to impress dry food on us!
They do? For cats? What do vets know?

Presumably you haven't owned a dog; they eat anything and everything. Correct..... I know some breeds chew anything and everything. They will chew slippers, but I doubt one would be given as a meal.....


We have to cook to stop it from harming us. Our incisors are not ideal meat masticators. The incisors are general purpose 'knives', cutting food onto mouth-size pieces regardless of source. The canines are the 'meat' teeth, for piercing and ripping.

Andy Capp
Yes, vets suggest dry food over moist.

Dogs do chew anything, but they also eat anything!

I know what our teeth are for, and they are not well equipped to eat meat. We have to cook it to make it easier. Indeed, our 'hunger' for meat is a massive resource consumer.


PS: NWNREADER, please quote properly!
NWNREADER
What has this to do with enforcement of halal?
Andy Capp
QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Jan 2 2012, 12:55 AM) *
What has this to do with enforcement of halal?

I thought that is obvious. People are getting pious over the treatment of animals. We are all cruel to animals to some degree.
lordtup
Interesting eclectic of views on a subject that I have campaigned vigorously over for half a century .
Firstly domestic farm animals are reared for the sole purpose of feeding the populace . If we didn't eat meat there would be no cattle , sheep ,pigs etc to debate .
Having established the need to rear animals for the table we must then decide how this achieved in the most cost effective way . Now contrary to popular concept animals do respond to kindness and any good livestock farmer will be first to admit that the quality of his end product is directly proportional to the care and attention lavished on them in the field.
Now having invested not only time and money but also the emotion of caring into his charges ,the final act of slaughter is an inevitability , but one that is to a degree outside his remit .
Anyone who has visited a slaughter house will testify that it is not easy viewing but modern facilities are monitored and we like to think that the dispatch is done in a humane fashion . Depending on the size of beast pre stunning is either by electric shock of captive bolt into the brain then it is hoisted up by the hind legs and the throat is then cut to drain the blood .I would like to say this is done out of sight of the the remaining animals but unfortunately they do witness their friends demise and this does cause real fear.Maybe not an ideal but probably as good as it gets and as directed by UK law.
In a Halal slaughter house there is no pre stunning .Sheep are hung upside down in a line and their throats cut as they pass along the line . Cattle are place in a large metal crush that rolls the beast on to it's back so that it can the throat is exposed . The noise from frightened animals is deafening . Anyone who thinks farm animals don't feel pain or sense fear are delusional . the barbarism of such establishments make the chasing of a fox by some upper class twit on a horse on a par with a game of scrabble.
You can accuse me of racialism if you like ,but the laws of this country stipulate certain practises and to exempt a section on religious or traditional grounds is unacceptable . If certain groups can not accept this then they should live elsewhere.
When in Rome.
Rusty Bullet
QUOTE (lordtup @ Jan 2 2012, 09:35 AM) *
If certain groups can not accept this then they should live elsewhere.


Oh look, another attack on followers of Islam.

Well, this forum has recently descended as far as muttering ..
." ...ruddy Johnny Foreigner ....coming over here drinking all our water...mutter mutter...shouldn't be allowed...mutter .....". Now we got the meat issue. I take it Kosher is out as well then?
lordtup
QUOTE (Rusty Bullet @ Jan 2 2012, 09:52 AM) *
Oh look, another attack on followers of Islam.

Well, this forum has recently descended as far as muttering ..
." ...ruddy Johnny Foreigner ....coming over here drinking all our water...mutter mutter...shouldn't be allowed...mutter .....". Now we got the meat issue. I take it Kosher is out as well then?


YESS !!! You have a problem with that ?
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Rusty Bullet @ Jan 2 2012, 09:52 AM) *
Oh look, another attack on followers of Islam.

I don't see it that way; Islam happen to endorse halal. I agree with others that our laws shouldn't be loosened to suit religious practice or culture, especially when it comes to the welfare of people and animals.
Biker1
The answer to the question posed in the title of this post is - We shouldn't and I'm amazed that we do.
Ban halal now in this country at least.
(Although I doubt this will happen as it will "offend"a religious minority) (too many people are "easily offended" I think!)
As many have already said - If you don't like it go elsewhere.

(And before you ask, no, I don't think we should ban motorcycling Old Harry!! tongue.gif )
Weavers Walk
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 2 2012, 11:06 AM) *
If you don't like it go elsewhere


As RB pointed out Kosher meat is prepared in the same way. Are you now suggesting that all Jews "go elsewhere"?
Biker1
QUOTE (Weavers Walk @ Jan 2 2012, 01:25 PM) *
As RB pointed out Kosher meat is prepared in the same way. Are you now suggesting that all Jews "go elsewhere"?

I think that all should accept that these methods of killing animals are unacceptable to the majority in this country and so should not expect it to happen here.
So yes, if you absolutely insist on an animal having its throat cut while conscious then go elsewhere where, for some reason, it IS acceptable.
Weavers Walk
You're having a good morning so far. That's the Jews and the Muslims you've got rid of.

What next? Annex the Sudetenland?
Biker1
QUOTE (Weavers Walk @ Jan 2 2012, 01:37 PM) *
You're having a good morning so far. That's the Jews and the Muslims you've got rid of.

What next? Annex the Sudetenland?

I think you're missing the point.!! rolleyes.gif
x2lls
QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 2 2012, 11:42 AM) *
I think you're missing the point.!! rolleyes.gif




I totally agree, we should not be making exceptions for ANY minority.
Call them what you will, but the fact is we have banned so many things of such minor importance, yet we still allow this shti to go unheeded.
OH DEAR, we upset muslims,jews etc for what amounts to fairy tales.
I make no apology of any degree. If you don't like it, either comply to the wishes of the vast majority of decent minded people or just P off.

I'm sure that if a referendum were to be held, halal would be destined for the bin as it so rightly should.
Weavers Walk
Calm the swearing down dear. It does your argument no good.

I suspect that the "wishes of the vast majority of decent minded people" are that people can eat what they want and should be free to choose to do so.

Please take your 'Dog-Whistle' racism elsewhere. (after all that WAS the point of your post wasn't it?) You know, have a crafty pop at the Muslims. Trouble is, you forgot or didn't know about Kosher meat. Stephen Fry is Jewish. Where do you propose he p's off to then?
Squelchy
Hear Hear.
Strafin
So you guys support animal cruelty then? I'm X2lls - let's have a vote on it. I don't care if you're Jewish or Muslim, or christian, cruelty for cruelty's sake is wrong. Also Stephen Fry is quite obviously not a Jew, not that it matters.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 05:01 PM) *
So you guys support animal cruelty then? I'm X2lls - let's have a vote on it. I don't care if you're Jewish or Muslim, or christian, cruelty for cruelty's sake is wrong. Also Stephen Fry is quite obviously not a Jew, not that it matters.

I doubt anyone supports animal cruelty as much as some people think that others are attempting to do a bit of ethnic minority bashing disguised as animal welfare. I think halal and kosha meat should be outlawed, but I also feel 'our' attitudes to animal welfare is not glowing either.
Nothing Much
Okay Stephen Fry comes from a Norfolk family. Lives near me when I am in Norfolk .The Fry family over years are long time not jewish.
Bankers maybe .Not that he has any connection,Fry and Gurney ended up as Barclays. A Quaker family.
Just a ramble. Antony Gormley lives nearby in Norfolk.Despite some odd sculptures he seems a nice bloke.
He is not Jewish either( you can tell). I fail to see why halal and Stephen Fry ended up in the same thread.

Stephen used to be a neighbour and he is a very big chap. About the size of a telephone box.
He has slimmed and I commend him for that.
Strafin
QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 2 2012, 05:38 PM) *
I doubt anyone supports animal cruelty as much as some people think that others are attempting to do a bit of ethnic minority bashing disguised as animal welfare. I think halal and kosha meat should be outlawed, but I also feel 'our' attitudes to animal welfare is not glowing either.

I find it quite offensive that I can be against animal suffering and then you come on here and call me a racist. The two are not linked. Halal meat is to do with religion, and whilst I understand people following theirs, whichever one it is, I think it is wrong to enforce it upon other people.
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 06:00 PM) *
I find it quite offensive that I can be against animal suffering and then you come on here and call me a racist.

I find it disappointing that you don't have good comprehension. Please show me where I accuse you of being a racist?' I was careful to be neutral with my argument and was simply rationalising the debate.

QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 06:00 PM) *
The two are not linked. Halal meat is to do with religion, and whilst I understand people following theirs, whichever one it is, I think it is wrong to enforce it upon other people.

Where did this come from; I am not forced to eat halal meat (as far as I know).
Strafin
I am sure you are because many places now stock it as standard, this is a result of people trying to ensure that it is supplied so as to cater for all religious dominations. ie forcing beliefs upon others.

Your quote "I doubt anyone supports animal cruelty as much as some people think that others are attempting to do a bit of ethnic minority bashing disguised as animal welfare" is basically trying to slur those with a different view in one of the most vulgar ways. I do not think it is down to me not having "good comprehension".
Andy Capp
QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 06:36 PM) *
Your quote "I doubt anyone supports animal cruelty as much as some people think that others are attempting to do a bit of ethnic minority bashing disguised as animal welfare" is basically trying to slur those with a different view in one of the most vulgar ways. I do not think it is down to me not having "good comprehension".

I was making an observation that is apparent. I did not accuse you of being a racist as you said I did. It is not up to you to have good comprehension, but not having any and accusing people of something they did not do will make you look stupid, as you have done here.
blackdog
QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 05:01 PM) *
So you guys support animal cruelty then? I'm X2lls - let's have a vote on it. I don't care if you're Jewish or Muslim, or christian, cruelty for cruelty's sake is wrong.


Halal / Kosher slaughtering methods are not cruelty for cruelty's sake - it's for religion's sake.

QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 05:01 PM) *
Also Stephen Fry is quite obviously not a Jew, not that it matters.

Stephen Fry's mother is Jewish - making him Jewish by definition (it's the mother who counts to Jews).

He is a member of the British Jews for Justice for Palestinians campaign.

However, he is also an outspoken critic of organised religion.

He certainly would not be forced out of the UK by a ban on Kosher meat. Nor would many other Jews, many of whom do not bother oberving the full Kosher regime.
Penelope
I have a friend who, while of the Jewish pursuasion, certanily dosnt eat Kosher,(only when his mums not coming round). The big difference as I see it is that the Jewish have never tried to push Kosher onto the rest of the population whereby there seems to be a trend for Muslims to want to, and we are letting it go on in the name of diversity !

UK slaughterhouses are not a pretty site but are a **** site better than the Halal altrnative.
Strafin
QUOTE (blackdog @ Jan 2 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Stephen Fry's mother is Jewish - making him Jewish by definition (it's the mother who counts to Jews).

Not if you denounce your religion.
On the edge
QUOTE (blackdog @ Jan 2 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Stephen Fry's mother is Jewish - making him Jewish by definition


My Mother is a Baptist - does that make me one by definition? blink.gif
user23
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jan 2 2012, 07:32 PM) *
My Mother is a Baptist - does that make me one by definition? blink.gif
Wikipedia reckons he's an Atheist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Fry
Turin Machine
If I sleep in a stable it doesn't make me a horse.
x2lls
[quote name='Weavers Walk' date='Jan 2 2012, 03:53 PM' post='52764']
Calm the swearing down dear. It does your argument no good.

Judging by the heated discussion here , it is not affected by the actual words, expletives or otherwise (note, I am not the only one who has asterisks in their submissions



I suspect that the "wishes of the vast majority of decent minded people" are that people can eat what they want and should be free to choose to do so.



As I said, a referendum would show what the majority of us feel.

Please take your 'Dog-Whistle' racism elsewhere. (after all that WAS the point of your post wasn't it?)

Umm, no.
The point of my post was exactly as it says on the tin, unnecessary cruelty in the name of fairy tales. You can't bring up Halal/Kosher WITHOUT including religion. That is why our lilly livered politicians lean over backwards to accomodate, and stuff the rest of us.

Besides, Islam is not a race, it is a religion of peace (!)



You know, have a crafty pop at the Muslims. Trouble is, you forgot or didn't know about Kosher meat. Stephen Fry is Jewish. Where do you propose he p's off to then?

Kosher, Halal, ask the goat or cow if it makes difference.
Stephen Fry? purleeze



x2lls
QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Jan 2 2012, 07:45 PM) *
If I sleep in a stable it doesn't make me a horse.




No, it wouldn't, but you may be a little horse if you breath in straw dust!!

wink.gif
Andy Capp
Although I feel somewhat hypocritical, I would like not to eat halal meat. How can I confirm if meat is halal?
Strafin
You should be able to just ask if you are getting it in a restaurant, otherwise I think it is on the packaging.
xjay1337
QUOTE (x2lls @ Jan 2 2012, 08:35 PM) *
No, it wouldn't, but you may be a little horse if you breath in straw dust!!

wink.gif


Okay okay, rein it in.
Turin Machine
neigh, I refuse !
Turin Machine
Ok, lets "make hay while the sun shines" and have a straw poll on the issue, anyway, gonna hoof it off to bed.
blackdog
QUOTE (Strafin @ Jan 2 2012, 07:13 PM) *
Not if you denounce your religion.


Jewishness is not only about religion - Fry certainly seems happy enough to be an atheist Jew when it suits him.
blackdog
QUOTE (On the edge @ Jan 2 2012, 07:32 PM) *
My Mother is a Baptist - does that make me one by definition? blink.gif

No - I have not seen parentage included in any definition of what a Baptist is.

However, Jews consider children born to Jewish mothers to be Jewish (Jewish father, gentile mother - not Jewish; Jewish mother, gentile father - Jewish).

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