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Community Representation for Openness & Fair Treatment, destruction of London Road industrial estate |
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Jun 7 2015, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 7 2015, 10:41 PM) "The Council has since announced that it won't make any profit itself, although its development partner will."Where have we seen this before? http://www.croft-newbury.org/ It isn't the council's job to make profits, and a developer would not get involved without a profit - so it's hardly a surprising announcement. What I'd like more information on is the council's income before and after - as I see it they currently get £300,000 a year rent and probably no council tax. No doubt there are administration and maintenance costs but it seems that there is a good sum coming in and saving us a few quid a year each on our council tax. After the development they will get a fair chunk of council tax - but will have to provide services in return for it. How much rent will they get? Or will they give the land away as per the Market Street and Parkway developments?
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Jun 8 2015, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 7 2015, 11:43 PM) It isn't the council's job to make profits, and a developer would not get involved without a profit - so it's hardly a surprising announcement.
What I'd like more information on is the council's income before and after - as I see it they currently get £300,000 a year rent and probably no council tax. No doubt there are administration and maintenance costs but it seems that there is a good sum coming in and saving us a few quid a year each on our council tax.
After the development they will get a fair chunk of council tax - but will have to provide services in return for it. How much rent will they get?
Or will they give the land away as per the Market Street and Parkway developments? So the Council shouldn't make profit from Council or Public Owned land, but if someone wants to put a few houses on their own land the council wants to come money grabbing with S106 charges. What a strange approach.
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Jun 8 2015, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 8 2015, 08:32 PM) It doesn't need to be about a profit, I can live with the council using its assets to promote sensible development - what I don't like is the freedom with which they give away the assets for no financial return Will they not receive Council Tax from residential properties in the development?
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Jun 8 2015, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jun 8 2015, 10:16 PM) Will they not receive Council Tax from residential properties in the development? Are you suggesting they make a profit from council tax? Council tax is determined on the basis of the costs of services it is to help pay for. New houses result in additional costs - it may look like an increase in WBC income, but it only pays for 70% or so of the costs incurred in running the council activities. Unless they get an increase in Government grant (now Osborne's hands have been freed I can't see that happening) extra homes simply mean extra costs to be born within the same WBC budget.
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Jun 8 2015, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 8 2015, 11:08 PM) Are you suggesting they make a profit from council tax? Council tax is determined on the basis of the costs of services it is to help pay for. New houses result in additional costs - it may look like an increase in WBC income, but it only pays for 70% or so of the costs incurred in running the council activities. Unless they get an increase in Government grant (now Osborne's hands have been freed I can't see that happening) extra homes simply mean extra costs to be born within the same WBC budget. No, not profit, you said there was no financial return. I'm asking, will they receive Council Tax from the residential properties in the development? If so, isn't this financial return?
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Jun 8 2015, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 8 2015, 11:08 PM) Are you suggesting they make a profit from council tax? Council tax is determined on the basis of the costs of services it is to help pay for. New houses result in additional costs - it may look like an increase in WBC income, but it only pays for 70% or so of the costs incurred in running the council activities. Unless they get an increase in Government grant (now Osborne's hands have been freed I can't see that happening) extra homes simply mean extra costs to be born within the same WBC budget. Is the New Homes Bonus still running? Can't remember the details exactly but I think it was a central government scheme to incentivise Councils to allow building, although if the figures you have quoted regarding Council Tax are correct then it probably wasn't such a good deal - a short term fix with long term consequences, especially if services are near or at full capacity.
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Jun 8 2015, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 8 2015, 11:08 PM) Are you suggesting they make a profit from council tax? Council tax is determined on the basis of the costs of services it is to help pay for. New houses result in additional costs - it may look like an increase in WBC income, but it only pays for 70% or so of the costs incurred in running the council activities. Unless they get an increase in Government grant (now Osborne's hands have been freed I can't see that happening) extra homes simply mean extra costs to be born within the same WBC budget. QUOTE (user23 @ Jun 8 2015, 11:25 PM) No, not profit, you said there was no financial return. I'm asking, will they receive Council Tax from the residential properties in the development? If so, isn't this financial return? I think user23's tucked you up there blackdog!
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Jun 9 2015, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jun 8 2015, 11:25 PM) No, not profit, you said there was no financial return.
I'm asking, will they receive Council Tax from the residential properties in the development?
If so, isn't this financial return? Oooh good! I've been wanting to buy some spare land near my house for ages to put a garage on it. More than happy to pay the Council Tax, didn't realise I don't have to pay for the land. Do you know what department hands over the deeds?
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Know your place!
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Jun 9 2015, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jun 8 2015, 11:25 PM) No, not profit, you said there was no financial return.
I'm asking, will they receive Council Tax from the residential properties in the development?
If so, isn't this financial return? Okay, fair point, there is a financial return - I guess there is always a financial return, even if it's negative. And Lolly is also right , there is a New Homes Bonus paid by Government (ie the taxpayers) for 6 years. But even with the bonus the annual income above expenditure - which is what I meant when I referred to a financial return - could well be less than the current income from rent. When the bonus ends the income will be lower than the expenditure. The fact is that Council Tax only pays for 70% of WBC expenditure, so any new homes cost the council money overall - unless Government grants are increased permanently (not just for 6 years). This is the norm, it is to be expected - it happens on any development - including ones where the council does not give up land that is currently earning it £300k a year. Is it really worth surrendering £300k a year to make a developer a bigger profit? And User - perhaps you'd like to give your take on WBC's track record on such developments - the lack of the promised income from the Parkway car parking and the empty social housing?
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Jun 10 2015, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 9 2015, 10:55 AM) Okay, fair point, there is a financial return - I guess there is always a financial return, even if it's negative. And Lolly is also right , there is a New Homes Bonus paid by Government (ie the taxpayers) for 6 years.
But even with the bonus the annual income above expenditure - which is what I meant when I referred to a financial return - could well be less than the current income from rent. When the bonus ends the income will be lower than the expenditure.
The fact is that Council Tax only pays for 70% of WBC expenditure, so any new homes cost the council money overall - unless Government grants are increased permanently (not just for 6 years). This is the norm, it is to be expected - it happens on any development - including ones where the council does not give up land that is currently earning it £300k a year.
Is it really worth surrendering £300k a year to make a developer a bigger profit?
And User - perhaps you'd like to give your take on WBC's track record on such developments - the lack of the promised income from the Parkway car parking and the empty social housing? Is the £300k just rent or does it include business rates as well? Do you have a link to the feasibility study or is it deemed commercially sensitive? And does anybody know how the land (or the majority of it) came to be owned by the Council in the first place? There could well be restrictive covenants on its use, as I would have hoped there are (or were) on Victoria Park.
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Jun 10 2015, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Lolly @ Jun 10 2015, 12:33 PM) Is the £300k just rent or does it include business rates as well? Do you have a link to the feasibility study or is it deemed commercially sensitive? And does anybody know how the land (or the majority of it) came to be owned by the Council in the first place? There could well be restrictive covenants on its use, as I would have hoped there are (or were) on Victoria Park. The £300k comes from the link in the first post and is stated to be rent - it won't include business rates because business rates don't go to WBC (they just collect them on behalf of the Treasury). Most of the land was probably part of the original Victoria Park or The Marsh as it was known - the Borough will have purchased it at some point. In days gone by the safest, almost the only, form of investment for public bodies was land. The Borough owned an awful lot of Newbury - which WBC is steadily giving away to developers.
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Jun 11 2015, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jun 10 2015, 06:08 PM) When I say it comes from the link in the first post it is not so clear. It is the document obtained by CROFT via an FOI request - as I found on their website. Here (I hope) is the direct link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/afd8ff37597fca267d...p;alloworigin=1Thanks. Presume you've read it as the £300k is towards the end. Is it just me or is it rather lacking in detail? And have I read it right that the Council is deliberately trying to bypass the competitive tendering rules?
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