NTC - CEO's Christmas Market Decisions, Demoicracy Breaks Out Options

[Simon Kirby]

Hmm, here's the Christmas Market web site. It says it's opening from 30 November to 22 December except for 9 December, so following the Council's standard Victoria Park Terms and Conditions I calculate that as a total hire charge of £3,550 rather than the £2,500 reported by the NWN. Has the booking charge already been partially waived?

[Andy Capp]

It looks to me that Mr Hunt has embarrassed the council. Would they several months ago have agreed to letting the Park out for free? They were forced onto a corner and for the sake of unity have retrospectively passed it through. That isn't how things should be done.

And again, what do we have? Almost complete intransigence. Newbury Town Council should be 'impeached'.

[Andy Capp]

Hmm, here's the Christmas Market web site. It says it's opening from 30 November to 22 December except for 9 December, so following the Council's standard Victoria Park Terms and Conditions I calculate that as a total hire charge of £3,550 rather than the £2,500 reported by the NWN. Has the booking charge already been partially waived?

So either someone tabled an untruth, or the organisers had already been let off a significant sum.

[Simon Kirby]

So either someone tabled an untruth, or the organisers had already been let off a significant sum.

There are other possibilities such as the Terms and Conditions have changed or the market isn't actually running for all of those dates as it appears from the web site to be, but it's something that deserves some clarification.

[Simon Kirby]

Being as how the Christmas Market is now using the Park for free, what happens if the Park is damaged? Pegasus Promotions and Events is a new company with total reported assets of £1, so if the Market is not a roaring success where will the money come from to repair the Park? If the viability of the Market already turns on the £2.5k booking fee I'd be more than a little nervous that the Town is going to be left holding the baby.

I think it's a good idea and I hope it is a success, but I think if it's being run in partnership with the BID as reported in the NWN then the BID need to stand guarantor, and they need to cough-up the booking fee too - and if it's not worth the risk for the BID, then I can't see it's worth the risk for the Town.

[blackdog]

Hmm, here's the Christmas Market web site. It says it's opening from 30 November to 22 December except for 9 December, so following the Council's standard Victoria Park Terms and Conditions I calculate that as a total hire charge of £3,550 rather than the £2,500 reported by the NWN. Has the booking charge already been partially waived?

I suspect they won't move all the stalls out for the 9th - so I'd charge for that day as well.

However, £2,500 or even £3,700 is not a lot to pay for an event that may well bring a good number of people in to town. I suspect it is has no immediate effect on the budget as it probably isn't in the budget. I doubt there will be a huge amount of damage, its not as if heavy vehicles are going to be churning it up trying to drag out sunken fair rides. Sure some grass will become mud, but things like that recover quickly at minimal cost. Far better value for money than the cycle race the other year.

My suspicions are aroused by the claim that £2,500 is make or break given the number of stallholders who seem to have signed up for the event. As the company running it has no capital I'd certainly ask for a bond up front to cover any serious damage - or sight of their insurance policy.

The real issue is the Town Clerk overstepping his powers - by doing something all but one of the councillors later approved of him doing. Worthy of a 'don't do it again' slap on the wrist, or even a 'we need to change the rules to give the Clerk more flexibility', but hardly a sacking issue.

[On the edge]

I suspect they won't move all the stalls out for the 9th - so I'd charge for that day as well.

However, £2,500 or even £3,700 is not a lot to pay for an event that may well bring a good number of people in to town. I suspect it is has no immediate effect on the budget as it probably isn't in the budget. I doubt there will be a huge amount of damage, its not as if heavy vehicles are going to be churning it up trying to drag out sunken fair rides. Sure some grass will become mud, but things like that recover quickly at minimal cost. Far better value for money than the cycle race the other year.

My suspicions are aroused by the claim that £2,500 is make or break given the number of stallholders who seem to have signed up for the event. As the company running it has no capital I'd certainly ask for a bond up front to cover any serious damage - or sight of their insurance policy.

The real issue is the Town Clerk overstepping his powers - by doing something all but one of the councillors later approved of him doing. Worthy of a 'don't do it again' slap on the wrist, or even a 'we need to change the rules to give the Clerk more flexibility', but hardly a sacking issue.

If I was struggling to pay my community charge, or if I was in an organisation who'd had my funding cut, or if I was an employee waiting for my redundancy £2,500 is NOT a small sum. I wonder what would happen if I call the revenue team at WBC and say I can't pay my community charge, just this month, will you let me off?

No, it's not a sacking offence, but it is disciplinary and let's face it, the CEO didn't even get a slapped wrist. Frankly, it's a matter of principles, but what would the present incumbents at NTC know about them.

What the Promoters have done doesn't bode well for the event, will that be a similar shambles because they 'couldn't afford'. Yet again, NTC has proved it simply has no idea about running markets!

(NB - those of us who have paid through the nose to hire rooms at the Town Hall to do things 'for the good of the Town' ought to learn from this!)

[Andy Capp]

Yes, the CEO Mr Hunt waived the fee, and the Council leader, Julian Swift-Hook (Lib Dem, Pyle Hill) said:

“There was concern that the issue was decided without reference to any members. In absolute cash terms the amount of money is not huge but we do have processes in place and that when decisions are made they follow the right process.

“My understanding is that the private contractor would not have been able to proceed with the Christmas market if they had to pay the rent but this is to the benefit to the people of Newbury. I think the decision is the right decision to have been made.”

I read that:

"Graham is a keen utility cyclist and is also the Larger Councils Champion and co-ordinator of the Larger Local Councils Network for the Society of Local Council Clerks. He has a Certificate in Local Council Administration and is a Member of the Institute of local Council Management. All this gives him good access to best practice (and new ideas) across the 300 largest town parish Councils in England and Wales".

It raises the question of how independent the BID and NTC are, and whether this is how the NTC and the BID should work? Lets face it, Mr Hunt's action put the council in a difficult position and under the circumstances, it would have been very unlikely the council would have come to a different decision.

(NB - those of us who have paid through the nose to hire rooms at the Town Hall to do things 'for the good of the Town' ought to learn from this!)

Quite right and I wonder how the chartered market stall holders feel about all this charity?

[Mr Brown]

Newbury just doesn't do markets does it? I love all the certificates and qualifications, but it's only a little council. Perhaps he's just too big for the job!

[blackdog]

If I was struggling to pay my community charge, or if I was in an organisation who'd had my funding cut, or if I was an employee waiting for my redundancy £2,500 is NOT a small sum. I wonder what would happen if I call the revenue team at WBC and say I can't pay my community charge, just this month, will you let me off?

As i see it the two choices were 1) not get £2500 and not get an Xmas market - or 2) not get £2500 and get an Xmas market. There wasn't a choice that involved getting the £2500.

If the Xmas market is as good as their website makes out (okay I doubt that it will be) then it will bring people to Newbury who may not come here normally. Who knows, some of them may look around the town and like what they see - and come back.

The council decided that the right decision has been made.

Personally I would have though that the CEO, who managed a £1,000,000 budget for NTC might be empowered to make decisions at the £2,500 level without having to wait a month or more for the next NTC committee meeting.

[On the edge]

As i see it the two choices were 1) not get £2500 and not get an Xmas market - or 2) not get £2500 and get an Xmas market. There wasn't a choice that involved getting the £2500.

If the Xmas market is as good as their website makes out (okay I doubt that it will be) then it will bring people to Newbury who may not come here normally. Who knows, some of them may look around the town and like what they see - and come back.

The council decided that the right decision has been made.

Personally I would have though that the CEO, who managed a £1,000,000 budget for NTC might be empowered to make decisions at the £2,500 level without having to wait a month or more for the next NTC committee meeting.

Then we'd disagree.

Newbury has survived without such a Christmas Market for years, its also hardly original, so frankly, not having one would hardly be a disaster.

The Council has a £1,000,000 budget and that is managed, that makes no difference to responsibilities. This was a matter of agreeing to go against an agreed policy - the charges for use. Empowering the CEO to this degree actually calls into questions the need for the Councillors - why not let him just get on with it.

There was no need to wait for meetings, even the Councillors have email and mobile phones. As there are processes for everything else, there will be one for rapid decisions. Yes, the Council have agreed - in reality they didn't have much choice.

Democracy, but not as we know it!

[Andy Capp]

The council decided that the right decision has been made.

I very much doubt they felt they could say or vote any other way. Mr Hunt's actions saw to that.

Personally I would have though that the CEO, who managed a £1,000,000 budget for NTC might be empowered to make decisions at the £2,500 level without having to wait a month or more for the next NTC committee meeting.

I don't see the cash value, as such, as the biggest problem; rather this sets a precedent and also draws his office in to disrepute. He made a decision against procedure and with the potential for it to cost more than the loss of income. Why should the council charge others full price, if the Xmas market gets it for free?

On top of all that, I thought this kind of thing, this type of 'expenditure', was for the BID to manage?

Who's responsible for what?

[blackdog]

There is no expenditure at issue - the choice was get £0 or get £0 and a market.

The CEO should be there to implement policies set by the council and should be empowered to make decisions at an appropriate level - councillors should not be micro-managing every little bit of non-expenditure.

If the CEO broke protocol I'm sure he is fully aware of it now - and is unlikely to do so in the future. But it seems like a daft bit of protocol to me. He couldn't just ring round a few councillors - protocol would require a committee decision. Yes he could have asked JSH to call a special meeting - but what a waste of time over £0.

[Andy Capp]

There is no expenditure at issue - the choice was get £0 or get £0 and a market.

The CEO should be there to implement policies set by the council and should be empowered to make decisions at an appropriate level - councillors should not be micro-managing every little bit of non-expenditure.

If the CEO broke protocol I'm sure he is fully aware of it now - and is unlikely to do so in the future. But it seems like a daft bit of protocol to me. He couldn't just ring round a few councillors - protocol would require a committee decision. Yes he could have asked JSH to call a special meeting - but what a waste of time over £0.

You clearly haven't understood my last post, but I agree, the CEO is there to implement policy, but in this instance he failed to do so when unilaterally deciding to wave the rental fee.

Council leader, Julian Swift-Hook (Lib Dem, Pyle Hill) said: “Being faced with [the potential closure of the market] Graham Hunt decided that the council should waive the rent. None of the councillors were consulted on that decision, which is separate but related. We do have a process but that was not invoked. It’s not in the power of one person to make that decision. Spending money or forgoing income then that’s for the council to make. We’re not a business. We have to go through a democratic process. It was the right decision but the wrong process.”

[On the edge]

There is no expenditure at issue - the choice was get £0 or get £0 and a market.
[b][i]Generally, when you don't take the money you don't supply the goods, little wonder the Council is so short of cash!!![/b][/i]


The CEO should be there to implement policies set by the council and should be empowered to make decisions at an appropriate level - councillors should not be micro-managing every little bit of non-expenditure.
Quite right, one of those policies is to collect fees for the use of Council property. The Councillors aren't micro managing when they simply expect highly paid employees to do their job.

If the CEO broke protocol I'm sure he is fully aware of it now - and is unlikely to do so in the future. But it seems like a daft bit of protocol to me. He couldn't just ring round a few councillors - protocol would require a committee decision. Yes he could have asked JSH to call a special meeting - but what a waste of time over £0.
Really? and I thought you believed in democracy and effective management of public services . Not only has revenue been lost, so has the ability to charge anyone in the future, it does not show the Council in a very good light at all. If they can't even manage a straightforward commercial negotiation how do they expect us to believe they can manage anything else?

[user23]

Is he "highly paid"? How much is his salary, per year?

Why can't they charge next year?

Fees and the circumstances in which councils can charge, change all the time.

[On the edge]

Is he "highly paid"? How much is his salary, per year?

Why can't they charge next year?

Fees and the circumstances in which councils can charge, change all the time.

Look it up in the accounts; it's more than £20k. so it's what Joe Average, the charge payer regards as high.

Why can't they charge next year? Ever heard of a concept called 'precedent'? Been around since time immemorial.

Yeah, fees and circumstances change, and all the time. Like my insurance policy went up, my income has gone down, so I asked for a reduction. Very polite answer, amounted to same thing - no.

I'll have a bit of fun this morning, ribbing the market traders about their prices! Why haven't you passed on at least some of your rent reduction?

[user23]

Look it up in the accounts; it's more than £20k. so it's what Joe Average, the charge payer regards as high.

Why can't they charge next year? Ever heard of a concept called 'precedent'? Been around since time immemorial.

Yeah, fees and circumstances change, and all the time. Like my insurance policy went up, my income has gone down, so I asked for a reduction. Very polite answer, amounted to same thing - no.

I'll have a bit of fun this morning, ribbing the market traders about their prices! Why haven't you passed on at least some of your rent reduction?

More than £20k is "highly paid"?

The average wage is £26k per year, so you think someone on an average wage is "highly paid".

Your insurance went up? Just as the cost of using the park could.

It's hard to believe you're not trolling once again, with these sort of responses.

[On the edge]

More than £20k is "highly paid"?

The average wage is £26k per year, so you think someone on an average wage is "highly paid".

Your insurance went up? Just as the cost of using the park could.

It's hard to believe you're not trolling once again, with these sort of responses.

You just don't get it do you, quite sad really.

[The Hatter]

I'd be surprised if any of the basic shop workers in town got anywhere near twenty grand a year. Lots of them are on the zero hour kick as well.