Different planets, the walk/slide to work this week. Options

[Richard Garvie]

It's only a suggestion. As far as I know, community "payback" workers sit around drinking tea when the weather is bad and gardening / painting or whatever can't be done. Surely if they can't do what they normally do in the snow, then gritting would be an alternative?

[Bofem]

It's only a suggestion. As far as I know, community "payback" workers sit around drinking tea when the weather is bad and gardening / painting or whatever can't be done. Surely if they can't do what they normally do in the snow, then gritting would be an alternative?

No they don't. Only last weekend I saw around 20 of them working up at Snelsmore Common in sub-zero temperatures. Stop making it up!

[NWNREADER]

It's only a suggestion. As far as I know, community "payback" workers sit around drinking tea when the weather is bad and gardening / painting or whatever can't be done. Surely if they can't do what they normally do in the snow, then gritting would be an alternative?

What an admirable demonstration of what you know

[Darren]

Army cadets are in a programme that is only sponsored by the Army. They have no service obligation and cannot be 'called out/up'.

Given that the age of Army Cadets is in the 12-18 years age, having them out clearing snow would be pretty close to child labour and it could be argued that they would attract the minimum wage for their efforts.

Perhaps if a few of the politicians and their lackeys got out and made an effort to clear it first, then perhaps others will follow. They produce enough hot air to melt the snow and dry the highways with ease.

[On the edge]

Can't see why Richard Garvie's ideas have created so much excitement. Seem sensible to me - and highly visible proof for those who think community service orders don't happen.

As for cadets - quite agree there can be no conscription but was it totally out of order for our 'Chief' to get us clearing snow from OAP paths way back when I was a young sea cadet? We all thoroughly enjoyed it - as well as the mince pies and sweets provided the OAPs.

Back then of course, most peoplem cleared their own frontage, including the shopkeepers. Weren't we all silly!

[Darren]

Then along came the shysters....

Still cannot find any legal precedent for anyone being sued after someone slipped on a pavement that had been cleared of snow.

[Richard Garvie]

Hardly conscription or child Labour. If cadets were called into action, they would liely be doing things such as clearing runways etc. I bet if you approached the cadets, they would love to get involved. As for the probation service, they are there to assist the community with projects. The purpose of "payback" is to make up for some of the crime / offences committed.

Bofem, nothing wrong with the cold. But when it rains, I believe they sit in their vans or stay inside with little to do. Ken Clarke suggested he was going to change Community Payback so it was more of a punishment and benefitted the community more. I will gladly support those proposals being introduced here in West Berkshire (if they happen). Before they come in, I really can't see the harm in clearing pavements or putting down grit. Why is that different from painting fences or putting down salt?

[Richard Garvie]

Army cadets are in a programme that is only sponsored by the Army. They have no service obligation and cannot be 'called out/up'.

Given that the age of Army Cadets is in the 12-18 years age, having them out clearing snow would be pretty close to child labour and it could be argued that they would attract the minimum wage for their efforts.

Perhaps if a few of the politicians and their lackeys got out and made an effort to clear it first, then perhaps others will follow. They produce enough hot air to melt the snow and dry the highways with ease.

So is it child labour when they steward sporting events or direct traffic at large events? I think they would say that it is good practice and that their platoon get a nice donation towards new equipment.

[Darren]

So is it child labour when they steward sporting events or direct traffic at large events? I think they would say that it is good practice and that their platoon get a nice donation towards new equipment.

You mean the equipment that the Army provide?

They attend events for marshalling to raise finds for travel costs etc for camps. They should never be used for controlling traffic as they have no authority on the public road. Clearing pavements would be classed as MACC (Military Assistance to Civil Community) as that falls to the local authority.

How about the 3 million or so Labour-provided unemployed, or as you so deftly passed over, getting politicians to lead the way? I'm sure local parties will only be too keen to get out and help all those registered voters constituents/ward residents?

[On the edge]

Then along came the shysters....

Still cannot find any legal precedent for anyone being sued after someone slipped on a pavement that had been cleared of snow.

That's because there isn't one. Being cursed with a liong memory, I can remember the times when we thought you'd get sued if you DIDN'T remove snow from your frontage! This latest nonsence has been put about by the usual little people. Indeed, last winter we had one of our own 'rent a quote' councillors sounding off - then having to rapidly retract.

We, the people, really ought to be making much much more of a fuss - to stop this 'claims culture' - which is really anti social behaviour in another guise. A lot is lazy legal people making out of Court settlements - but we can do our bit - making sure anyone who suggests 'they have a claim' is put right.

[Simon Kirby]

That's because there isn't one. Being cursed with a liong memory, I can remember the times when we thought you'd get sued if you DIDN'T remove snow from your frontage! This latest nonsence has been put about by the usual little people. Indeed, last winter we had one of our own 'rent a quote' councillors sounding off - then having to rapidly retract.

We, the people, really ought to be making much much more of a fuss - to stop this 'claims culture' - which is really anti social behaviour in another guise. A lot is lazy legal people making out of Court settlements - but we can do our bit - making sure anyone who suggests 'they have a claim' is put right.

Two years back the main north and east ditches around the Wash Common allotment were overgrown and useless. For the previous 13 years I'd happily kept my section of the south ditch clear, as the site rules required me to do, but the reigeme changed at the council a few years ago and the Council started to build up their maintenance empire and I was told not to clear the ditch. I cleared it anyway. Cllrs Fenn and Bairstow came over to complain, and one of their issues was "what about insurance". Well, what about insurance? Anyways, the Council changed the rules so that I couldn't clear the ditch anymore.

[JeffG]

Exactly. What has insurance got to do with something you decide to do voluntarily off your own bat? If you fall in and break a leg, it's your fault entirely! Crazy.

[Simon Kirby]

Exactly. What has insurance got to do with something you decide to do voluntarily off your own bat? If you fall in and break a leg, it's your fault entirely! Crazy.

Quite so. As land owner the Council own me a duty of care (Occupier's Liability Act 1984) so if they've laid man-traps in the ditch then there might be a question of negliagence should I lose a leg in one, but other than that I'm accepting the usual risks of slips and trips, manual handling, Weil's disease, etc, so there's no claim on the Council should I come a cropper, and should I cause 3rd-party damage while I'm ditch clearing the situation is no different to anything else I might be up to on the allotment or anywhere else for that matter and as I don't consider it prudent to carry 3rd-party insurance in any other (non-driving) aspect of my private life I'm not going to do it when I clear a ditch.

Interestingly enough though, as land lowner the Council do have a higher duty of care to me on the allotment than the local authority do for public areas in general, so just as I have a duty of care to visitors to my house (as against the pavement outside my house) to keep my path ice-free and non-slippery, the Council do have to maintain the allotment paths in a non-slippery condition, whereas that's not the case for pavements on the street.

[Simon Kirby]

Still cannot find any legal precedent for anyone being sued after someone slipped on a pavement that had been cleared of snow.

No, there isn't any. You owe the pavement user a common-law duty of care so if someone slipped on a pavement you'd cleared they would have to prove negliagence on your part, and to do that you would have to have done something extraordinarily stupid. All things being equal clearing off the snow and ice is better than not, though putting down road salt afterwards is better still. I've done mine and my neighbours either side.

[On the edge]

Two years back the main north and east ditches around the Wash Common allotment were overgrown and useless. For the previous 13 years I'd happily kept my section of the south ditch clear, as the site rules required me to do, but the reigeme changed at the council a few years ago and the Council started to build up their maintenance empire and I was told not to clear the ditch. I cleared it anyway. Cllrs Fenn and Bairstow came over to complain, and one of their issues was "what about insurance". Well, what about insurance? Anyways, the Council changed the rules so that I couldn't clear the ditch anymore.

How sad - but its up to us, elections are looming. Lets go for leadership this time folks!

[Richard Garvie]

I'd happily volunteer for a bit of snow clearing of salt laying. Darren, I'm not asking for the council to make it compulsory, I'm suggesting that the council could contact the probation service and ask for their assistance like they do with grafitti clearing etc. As for cadets, I know that they take care of traffic management at certain football clubs, sporting events and festivals. In other areas, the local authority have approached the local cadets and scouting organisations asking for assistance. It's not like they are being forced to do it, but they are doing it to help their local area.

I'm not claiming that these ideas are mine, I've seen them employed elsewhere and I think it's positive and should be considered here. What we need in West Berkshire is to try new ways to tackle the problems that keep coming up over and over again. For whatever reason, when these problems come up, we go for the tried and failed West Berkshire method time and time again. It doesn't take much to look at other areas who have dealt with similar problems in the past.

[NWNREADER]

Here is how to suggest any works as suitable for 'community payback':
DirectGove

Rather than just ask 'whoever' why it hasn't been done, suggest to the right people what could be done. Then the role will either be accepted or an explanation will be given as to why it is rejected.

That answer may be unpalatable, but is a fresh debate....

[Richard Garvie]

I know exactly why it hasn't been done already. Nobody has requested it. You could also contact the local probation team to discuss ideas, if you were in a position to do that of course.

[NWNREADER]

I know exactly why it hasn't been done already. Nobody has requested it. You could also contact the local probation team to discuss ideas, if you were in a position to do that of course.

As it says in the information, anyone can make the request/contact the probation team. There is no requirement for any 'position'.
So anyone at all who sees any opening for work to be done simply picks up the phone.......

[Richard Garvie]

Are you suggesting that I call them? I'll happily do it, but it won't make any difference if I suggest it as I'm not in a position to make it happen. As for politicians clearing the snow, I was actually away when it happened but I'll happily make myself available for anything from clearing streets to delivering soup etc. to the elderly.

What about asking local people to sign a register for such circumstances? In one city in America, they have something which works like the retained firefighters in that when they have serious snow fall, around 100 volunteers gather to clear snow and ice. I don't think it's a lack of community spirit, I just think nobody has suggested ideas like these here to make it happen.