NTC consider allotment rent increase enforcement Options

[Iommi]

You did, but then you claim that you could save me & the other taxpapyers of Newbury £100k. Either the allotments are making a profit, or they are a drain on council cash.

Are the council entitled to make a 'profit' under these circumstances?

[dannyboy]

Are the council entitled to make a 'profit'?

I think it is called a surplus.

the surplus will be used to fund services where there is a deficit.

I'd say the allotments make a sizeable contribution towards these loss making services, or services where there is no income from the users at all. Hence NTC's reluctance to consider self management.

[Simon Kirby]

Illegal accounting? Not at all. I'm merely suggesting that there are no savings.

Well yes, that's exactly what you are suggesting. I pointed you at the council's accounts and I showed you how much the allotment service costs the tax payer according to those accounts, and then you said that actually allotments cost the tax payer nothing and the council only put something in the accounts under the heading 'Allotments' because if they didn't they'd lose that funding.

I've given you a detailed breakdown that shows how much the allotments cost, if you want to refute that then show me the money.

Comparring a retail unit to an allotment is supurious. You'd be unable to rent a comparable plot of land in Newbury twon centre for £70.00pa.

Help me out here: It was your comparison.

[Simon Kirby]

Are the council entitled to make a 'profit' under these circumstances?

Some Councils do operate their service at a profit, and at one time there was legislation to ensure that the maximum loss was only (I think) 8p in the £, but that's been repealed.

As it is NTC operate the allotment service at a loss of around £100k, and the figures are in this thread.

[Simon Kirby]

... you claim that you could save me & the other taxpapyers of Newbury £100k.
Either the allotments are making a profit, or they are a drain on council cash.

Have I said something inconsistent? NTC operate the allotment service at a nett cost to the tax-payer of £100k. The allotment service does not make a profit, it makes a loss of £100k. If the Council fully devolved the service onto the allotmenteers it wouldn't cost the Council any money to provide the service and it would save the tax-payer £100k.

[dannyboy]

Well yes, that's exactly what you are suggesting. I pointed you at the council's accounts and I showed you how much the allotment service costs the tax payer according to those accounts, and then you said that actually allotments cost the tax payer nothing and the council only put something in the accounts under the heading 'Allotments' because if they didn't they'd lose that funding.

I've given you a detailed breakdown that shows how much the allotments cost, if you want to refute that then show me the money.


Help me out here: It was your comparison.

I'd like to know where you can rent a plot of land, in the centre of town, other than an at a council allotment for £70 a year. It is cheap.

I didn't say that the allotments cost ther taxpayer nothing. They cost the tax payer exactly what is in NTC's accounts. What I am saying is that the actual, cost of the running the allotments is most likely less & that the allotments generate a surplus.

[dannyboy]

Have I said something inconsistent? NTC operate the allotment service at a nett cost to the tax-payer of £100k. The allotment service does not make a profit, it makes a loss of £100k. If the Council fully devolved the service onto the allotmenteers it wouldn't cost the Council any money to provide the service and it would save the tax-payer £100k.

you have already said that if the allotments were devolved my council tax bill would not go down.

and - The difficulty is that the Town Council strongly oppose self-management because they'll lose a £120k turnover business.......I'll form a not-for-profit management trust

do you really think it actually cost £185 per plot to run the allotments?

[Iommi]

I'd like to know where you can rent a plot of land, in the centre of town, other than an at a council allotment for £70 a year. It is cheap. .

I'm sorry dannyboy, your arguement is getting a tad anal. This isn't just about the cost, there is more at issue than cost and SK has stated as much many times.

[Iommi]

you have already said that if the allotments were devolved my council tax bill would not go down.

and - The difficulty is that the Town Council strongly oppose self-management because they'll lose a £120k turnover business.......I'll form a not-for-profit management trust

do you really think it actually cost £185 per plot to run the allotments?

Turnover is not profit.

[dannyboy]

I'm sorry dannyboy, your arguement is getting a tad anal. This isn't just about the cost, there is more at issue than cost and SK has stated as much many times.

I'm just being as anal as SK. IMHO it is about the cost, but that isn't as noble as fighting a matter of principle is it? If it isn't about the cost why bang on about saving tax payers £100k when you & I both know not a single Council Tax bill would fall if allotments were self managed. .

[Simon Kirby]

I'd like to know where you can rent a plot of land, in the centre of town, other than an at a council allotment for £70 a year. It is cheap.

Yes, and I agree with you, if you want to rent an allotment in the town centre where there isn't an allotment site then it will cost you more than £70. That it costs less to rent an allotment at an allotment site than it does in the town centre is not a compelling argument for the allotment rent being cheap, it just illustrates the ecconomics of land use. I might just as well argue that £70 is expensive for an allotment because I could rent a croft on Shetland for less.

If you're saying that £70 for an allotment is cheap because the site could be developed for retail which commands a much higher rent then that doesn't work either. Allotments have statutory protection from development, NTC is under a legal duty to provide allotments, and PPG17 protects sites from development. When you see an allotment site in the middle of a development the site doesn't have any value other than as an allotment site.

I didn't say that the allotments cost ther taxpayer nothing. They cost the tax payer exactly what is in NTC's accounts. What I am saying is that the actual, cost of the running the allotments is most likely less & that the allotments generate a surplus.

Then what you are saying is that NTC are illegally accounting for costs under the allotments head when they should properly be accounted for under another head. You need to bring this to the attention of the auditors because it is illegal. Dannyboy - do you have some inside knowledge to justify this accusation, or are you just fabricating this story?

[dannyboy]

Yes, and I agree with you, if you want to rent an allotment in the town centre where there isn't an allotment site then it will cost you more than £70. That it costs less to rent an allotment at an allotment site than it does in the town centre is not a compelling argument for the allotment rent being cheap, it just illustrates the ecconomics of land use. I might just as well argue that £70 is expensive for an allotment because I could rent a croft on Shetland for less.

If you're saying that £70 for an allotment is cheap because the site could be developed for retail which commands a much higher rent then that doesn't work either. Allotments have statutory protection from development, NTC is under a legal duty to provide allotments, and PPG17 protects sites from development. When you see an allotment site in the middle of a development the site doesn't have any value other than as an allotment site.


Then what you are saying is that NTC are illegally accounting for costs under the allotments head when they should properly be accounted for under another head. You need to bring this to the attention of the auditors because it is illegal. Dannyboy - do you have some inside knowledge to justify this accusation, or are you just fabricating this story?

No I have no knowledge, other that having worked in large businesses where an absolute to the penny costing is impossible.

I'm saying that to be able to rent a plat of land in Newbury for £70.00pa is cheap. I' am talking about a directly comparable bit of land, for the exact same use. Do you think you would be able to rent some one's back garden to grow veg in, for £70.00pa ?

[Simon Kirby]

If the allotmtns were self run do you really think my Council Tax bill would drop by £7.71

Yes, if you're on band D. Of course, it'll be a cold day in Hull before the Council let that happen.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. To answer your question, yes, self-management would reduce a band-D council tax payer's bill by £7.71. As the different bands pay different amounts of tax I can't say exactly what your saving will be unless I know your band, but band-D is pretty much average so it illustrates the saving.

My comment about the Council not letting it happen was made because the Council don't want to lose what for them is a £115k turnover business. The Council are not concerned about the £100k cost to the tax-payer of that business, their only concern is losing that business. They will never allow the allotment service to become self-managed.

[Iommi]

I'm just being as anal as SK. IMHO it is about the cost, but that isn't as noble as fighting a matter of principle is it?

You obviously have selective reading. He has listed a number of complaints, cost is but one of several factors in this.

If it isn't about the cost why bang on about saving tax payers £100k when you & I both know not a single Council Tax bill would fall if allotments were self managed.

Saving the tax payer £100k does not = a council tax reduction.

[dannyboy]

You obviously have selective reading. He has listed a number of complaints, cost is but one of several factors in this.


Saving the tax payer £100k does not = a council tax reduction.

He may have listed 'several complaints' that still does not alter my opinion.

Apparently the savings will be passed on - see above.

[Simon Kirby]

No I have no knowledge, other that having worked in large businesses where an absolute to the penny costing is impossible.

Sorry, but you can't just refute my analysis just because it isn't convenient. At the very least you could say which heads you suppose to have been falsely inflated and which reduced. Why do you suppose any sloppyness in the Council's acounts would necessarily falsely inflate the allotment services costs as against any other service? I've made a longitudinal study of the Council's costs over the last seven years and I can't see any pattern of differential movement in costs, so if it is deliberate false accounting it has survived a complete regeime change at the Council and that seems unlikely. I'm sorry, but I've gone to some effort to make my argument rigorous, and in fairness I don't see any merit in your intuition.

I'm saying that to be able to rent a plat of land in Newbury for £70.00pa is cheap. I' am talking about a directly comparable bit of land, for the exact same use. Do you think you would be able to rent some one's back garden to grow veg in, for £70.00pa ?

Only an allotment plot is directly comparable to an allotment plot. Your argument that allotments are cheap because allotments are cheap is circular.

[dannyboy]

Sorry, but you can't just refute my analysis just because it isn't convenient. At the very least you could say which heads you suppose to have been falsely inflated and which reduced. Why do you suppose any sloppyness in the Council's acounts would necessarily falsely inflate the allotment services costs as against any other service? I've made a longitudinal study of the Council's costs over the last seven years and I can't see any pattern of differential movement in costs, so if it is deliberate false accounting it has survived a complete regeime change at the Council and that seems unlikely. I'm sorry, but I've gone to some effort to make my argument rigorous, and in fairness I don't see any merit in your intuition.


Only an allotment plot is directly comparable to an allotment plot. Your argument that allotments are cheap because allotments are cheap is circular.

Now you are using spin.

I have never said that the costs are 'inflated'.

[dannyboy]

My comment about the Council not letting it happen was made because the Council don't want to lose what for them is a £115k turnover business. The Council are not concerned about the £100k cost to the tax-payer of that business, their only concern is losing that business. They will never allow the allotment service to become self-managed.

Are you suggesting that they are not entertaining any proposals for self management because it would eventually negate their reason to exist?

[Simon Kirby]

My comment about the Council not letting it happen was made because the Council don't want to lose what for them is a £115k turnover business. The Council are not concerned about the £100k cost to the tax-payer of that business, their only concern is losing that business. They will never allow the allotment service to become self-managed.

Are you suggesting that they are not entertaining any proposals for self management because it would eventually negate their reason to exist?

That is precisely what I am suggesting.

[dannyboy]

That is precisely what I am suggesting.

I'm glad that has been cleared up.