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Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 7 2012, 10:38 PM

Caravans have appeared in the middle of Stroud Green.

Posted by: Strafin Aug 7 2012, 10:41 PM

It's fine, they are lovely law abiding people, who will leave it in a better condition than they found it. Actually knowing our council, you will probably find they have had it tarmacced by tomorrow!

Posted by: Sherlock Aug 8 2012, 05:46 AM

This thread is almost certain to end up with someone posting an extreme slur of some kind (as did the one I started before, the slur was deleted) and, rightly, result in it being locked or removed.

Clearly this topic provokes extreme reactions. There are well known and often serious problems related to traveller communities and it really is as well to be aware of them. This neither means that they are animals nor does it mean they are saints.

Incidentally, the person who said in the other thread 'if you'd taken my photo I'd have asked you why' clearly wasn't paying attention. It wasn't the photo that provoked the aggressive response and it wasn't the fact that they responded that concerned me, it was how they responded.

That's all from me on this topic, as I said in the other thread it was clearly a mistake to raise it. Let's get back to something safe like old photos of Newbury.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 07:37 AM

Lovely people, pillars of the community, part of the rural landscape. Law abiding and hardworking everyone of them.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 08:15 AM

It would seem it is not deemed news worthy. Unless they have now gone!

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 08:15 AM

If you are to believe big fat gypsy weddings. ;-)

Posted by: NORTHENDER Aug 8 2012, 08:24 AM

Admin. This post is blatant FLAME TROLLING and is known in the forum world as FLAME BAIT. Posted to do nothing but put member against member. Our resident misanthrope has kicked in already, now watch it go downhill fast.

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 08:28 AM

Can't help yourself can you? Thankfully I am mature enough not to raise to it, so if you have nothing interesting to say I'll just ignore you.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 08:38 AM

I think they were moved on, I always remember lots of travellers stopping over for a couple of days at this time of year, was told it was to do with the Harvests (fruit picking et al) probably be gone by the weekend. Chillax everyone.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 08:39 AM

Well done, aviod conflict where poss.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 08:52 AM

ask and thou shalt recieve

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2012/travellers-pitch-up-at-stroud-green

Posted by: Adrian Hollister Aug 8 2012, 09:23 AM

Why is this news? are we so intolerant as a society that we cannot accept people for what they are?

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 09:25 AM

I think we would accept them if they did'nt leave such a nasty mess.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 8 2012, 09:28 AM

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that?
Surely we can only tolerate people depending to what extent they fit in with society?

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 09:31 AM

Lets see just how welcolming he is after they've camped out on his village green for two weeks, Salt of the earth mind you.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 09:52 AM

If any group of people pitched camp on Stroud Green ( dutch tourists - scouts - bedouins ) they'd be asked to move on. I can't see what all the fuss is about.

Posted by: Adrian Hollister Aug 8 2012, 09:57 AM

Agree.

But the 'shock and horror' of it all for some middle Englanders seems to be that they are Travellers. Wonder if these these are the same type of people who were outraged by the influx of 'colonials' after the war?

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 10:00 AM

Travellers are not people you want camping anywhere near you, they have no regard for private property or planning laws. They have been known to tarmac known greenbelt land and allow their children to use the local wood as toilets. No to mention the damage and littter left behind costs the council money to clear up, money needed to more worthwhile things.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 8 2012, 10:09 AM

So Adrian,

You see no problem with "travellers" whatsoever?

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 10:11 AM

Tarmacing the greenbelt & flouting planning regs? Funny how when someone else does it it is a crime & yet when the council stops someone 'improving' their home it is local, trumped up pen pushers thinking they are the law.....


Litter left lying around.....have you seen Victoria Park after a warm weekend?

And who hasn't had a **** in the woods?

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 10:14 AM

So it's ok then ?

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 10:18 AM

The difference is that the council will come down like a ton of bricks if Joe Soap goes an inch over the line but travellers enjoy a degree of protection that we, the taxpayers, can only dream of.

Posted by: Adrian Hollister Aug 8 2012, 10:18 AM

There are good and bad with all walks of society, after all it wasn't long ago that bankers were respected and not seen as crooks.

Perhaps out efforts should be to accept that from time to time they will arrive and be supportive by offering facilities - something that is common on the canal network where people generally move around a lot and have no geographically fixed abode.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 8 2012, 10:19 AM

Yep, they're general "good eggs" all round!!

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 10:19 AM

Oh and I can honestly say I have'nt had a **** in the woods.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 10:19 AM

Were you refering to me, or is this just a misquote?

Posted by: massifheed Aug 8 2012, 10:21 AM

There is a difference though, between someone making changes (albeit potentially illegal) to property they own, and someone damaging property they don't own (as andy1979uk has alleged).

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 10:22 AM

Am sure there are some good ones, but few and far between.

Posted by: massifheed Aug 8 2012, 10:24 AM

I found that somewhat confusing. I can only assume that it was a mis-quote, as all you had done was state a fact.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 10:26 AM

I have a feeling the tarmac laying will have been done a someone's request........

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 10:27 AM

Every one is treated a like in the eyes of the law. It is only 'Joe Soap' who views one part of society as beneath him.

Posted by: massifheed Aug 8 2012, 10:32 AM

I would say in theory only. It is often down to a judge's interpretation of the law that decides how people are treated.

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 10:38 AM

Did you follow the Dale Farm eviction? They clearly want the law on their side when it suits them, and ignore it when it does'nt.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 10:40 AM

Like someone who takes the law into their own hands......

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 10:43 AM

This is'nt about me is it? Were discussing travellers, quite nicely so far.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 10:48 AM

What makes you think that?

People generally tend to see their own actions as justified & the actions of others as taking liberties.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 10:52 AM

it's ok, apparently they will be moving on soon, It turns out that some kind soul has pointed out a lovely site just off the B4494, nice green space with a pond, doesn't seem to be used much and the locals apparently are very welcolming.

Posted by: Adrian Hollister Aug 8 2012, 10:57 AM

Well done Penelope, pointless as usual. Yawn.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 11:00 AM

I thought it was very public spirited myself.

Posted by: Adrian Hollister Aug 8 2012, 11:02 AM

Boring, pointless, again.

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 8 2012, 11:08 AM

No but you argue with me just because it is me, same as NORTHENDER.

Posted by: JeffG Aug 8 2012, 11:44 AM

No, I don't think anyone could be as vitriolic as Northender. Time he was banned, IMO.

Posted by: Blake Aug 8 2012, 12:36 PM

Perhaps we could set all the local chuggers and churglers on them...I bet that would get them moving. Fighting fire with fire as it were..

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 12:37 PM

Looks like someone just scuttled off to check his local cricket pitch. (Just in case)

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 12:49 PM

It is more than 'middle Englanders' that feel they way you describe. I don't think turning this into a class issue is going to help the argument.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 02:36 PM

maybe if your views were not so polar........

Posted by: JeffG Aug 8 2012, 02:37 PM

Or trying to pretend it's a racist issue, which is what you implied from your comment.

(Edit: added to post #45 in reply to #17)

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 02:50 PM

Does racism only involve the colour of someone's skin then?

Posted by: JeffG Aug 8 2012, 03:46 PM

No of course not. But travellers are not a race, they have a lifestyle. And a very anti-social environmentally damaging one at that.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 03:51 PM

No of course not. But travellers are not a race, they have a lifestyle

Ah, I see, prejudice is a race thing.

And a very anti-social environmentally damaging one at that.

How very Daily Mail of you.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 03:53 PM

What lot of twaddle.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 03:54 PM

Come again?

Posted by: Nothing Much Aug 8 2012, 04:49 PM

"2nd try" Not sure where the 1st one went ...probably Curiosity on Mars.Good job done NASA,

The ancient traveling folk in vardos were viewed with suspicion centuries ago
But were a part of life.On poetry," Raggle Taggle". etc. Van Gogh painted a camp.

Arlo Guthrie changed his fathers words which were an adaptation of an older song.
She's gone with the "Gypsy Davey"
And the Tzigane music of eastern composers.

Most folk locked up their daughters! ( I don't wish to comment on the present lot).

ce ( can I come off the naughty steps now?)

Posted by: Jayjay Aug 8 2012, 04:59 PM

It is news because it is happening. It is Newbury news because it is happening in Newbury. To some extent we all disagree with something. When JL opened in Park Way some people were intolerant of that, but it was still news.

Posted by: Brewmaster Aug 8 2012, 05:20 PM

I totally agree. If they didn't behave in the way they do, people would not be prejudiced against them.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 8 2012, 06:02 PM

Posted by: JeffG Aug 8 2012, 06:50 PM

I can take a lot of insults, but to be accused of being a Daily Mail reader is something I will not take!

Also you talk in non-sequiturs:
"Does racism only involve the colour of someone's skin then?"
"No of course not. But travellers are not a race, they have a lifestyle"
"Ah, I see, prejudice is a race thing."

Can't you see what total nonsense your replies are? You are trying to say I am prejudiced, but you are in fact saying the opposite. Hence non sequitur.

So they are models of society, and environmentally caring, are they?
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/districts/bournemouth/gallery/duck_lane/ plucked at random from 't internet.

Posted by: Nothing Much Aug 8 2012, 06:56 PM

An Arlo. He was younger when I bought the LP, So was I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GkJnAcF4o.
ce

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 06:57 PM

I think that making generalisations about a group of people is plain wrong. It wouldn't be acceptable to do so about a group of Italians, or Poles, or Liverpudlians, so I fail to see why it is acceptable to do so about a group of travellers about whom none of us knows a thing.

I saw some rather poor behaviour in Exeter a few weeks ago - should I assume all West country folk are like this?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 07:12 PM

Focusing on the group in question, I would be very surprised if they didn't know that the last two places they have pitched up would not be welcomed, if not trespassing. Do these people not have somewhere legitimate to pitch up?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 07:24 PM

I think this is how humans are programmed to behave and is mainly instinctive. Some of us are naturally cautious of strangers, particularly ones whose life styles we are untrusting of. Put simply, many people are nervous or scared of travellers.

Posted by: Jayjay Aug 8 2012, 07:43 PM

Stereotyping happens. The germans nick all the sunbeds, the English queue. Frence eat fogs legs and snails, English eat roast beef, Italians only eat pasta. All the Welsh can sing, Liverpudlians are comedians. The statment may be true for some and totally incorrect for others, but no sensible persons calls this prejudice or racial.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 07:49 PM

So what would you call this glowing endorsement of a thread?

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 08:06 PM

Huh?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 08:07 PM

We should be free to express our opinions without fear of ridicule. To do so may mean we learn something. As soon as people act like dannyboy, then one becomes defensive, and good debate is less likely to follow.

It is without doubt travellers cause concern to settlers. What would be good is if we could discuss the merits of our position without the fear that we will be classed as EDL, BNP or even Daily Mail readers. BTW - I can't see anything wrong with the Daily Mail, provided you treat it like all papers, with a pinch of salt.

I believe most people are racist, prejudiced, or bigoted, to some degree; the trouble is, the words are understood to be extreme, so one is assumed to be extremist.

Posted by: Jayjay Aug 8 2012, 08:10 PM

I would call it perfectly normal. Some people accept travellers, some people do not trust them. On this thread we have discussions about not trusting young men with dogs, people who drink in the Hatchet and nobody trusts the council. Just differences of opinion no need for the thought police to get involved.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 8 2012, 08:11 PM

You forgot the Dutch who always surrender and people who claim to come from uninhabited south Atlantic islands who have peculier relations with penguins.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 08:24 PM

Which would be fine, but there is always a not to subtle under tone on this forum.......

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 8 2012, 08:26 PM

Then we should express our opinions without the use of perjoratives.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 8 2012, 08:32 PM

And perhaps we shouldn't put words in to others' mouths.

I agree, some are quick to use ugly language, but there others...

...hold on, I'm getting drawn in.


TTFN

Posted by: JeffG Aug 8 2012, 09:35 PM

I thought that was the French.

Posted by: MoonPhoenix Aug 8 2012, 09:39 PM

I would guess, no.

i think this lack of provision is rather short sighted of WBC. But I think it's generally accepted oppinion that the newbury town planning is all about poor vision.

Really, I think the solution here should be to maybe pressure the council to provide a transit site or 2 within west berks. That way, there is somewhere managed and economically viable to move people onto... Rather than the lengthy and expensive legal cat & mouse that will just result from reactively moving on from all the towns green spaces in turn.
The good apples within the Travelling fraternity would be happy to pay a fair rent for somewhere with facilities to pull up where they won't be getting hassled by locals/authorities for the duration of their stay.
And the bad apples, will become self evident and you can be free to release the hounds... As the bad apples are a discredit to the rest of us who do live by the rules and pay our way.

also, well done guys, those of you keeping some rational objectiveness in this discussion.

Posted by: HeatherW Aug 8 2012, 10:15 PM

Unless the Caravans are doing any damage then I will leave the be. I am sure that the council will do the appropriate thing.

Posted by: Strafin Aug 9 2012, 02:10 AM

They could use all the taxes that the travelling community pay....

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 9 2012, 06:06 AM

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 9 2012, 09:12 AM

They've gone now, but they seem to have forgotten to take some stuff with them!

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 09:14 AM

Hardly suprising, then they moan that people don't like them and they are not given a chance. I would never have a problem if they left no mess and obeyed the law, but they think they are above it.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 9 2012, 09:32 AM

Posted by: Penelope Aug 9 2012, 09:48 AM

Thats Ok, Dannyboy and Moonphoenix are on their way to clear it all up, bless'em.

Posted by: On the edge Aug 9 2012, 09:59 AM

Let's face it, a good few of us 'settlers' leave things behind when we move! Many of us even have trouble with our own rubbish - look at the streets and certain front gardens. At least here its all in one place.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 09:59 AM

No more than I'll be in Victoria park of a monday clearing up.


Maybe if they were not asked to move on within hours of pitching up they would not fell obliged to leave some crap behind......just a thought......

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 10:33 AM

Maybe if they did'nt pitch on a playing field people would have more compasion for them ? I don't know anyone who has a good word to stay about them.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 9 2012, 10:40 AM

Dream On!!

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 10:46 AM

Oh, I must have missed the caravans that pitch near the boating lake at the weekend ?

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 10:50 AM

I think you'll find it is the locals who leave the crap.

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 10:51 AM

so the locals wonder onto the travellors camp site and drop their litter ?

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 10:54 AM

Just got up?

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 10:55 AM

no am just amused that you think locals dropping litter is on the same scale.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 11:00 AM

A week in week out littering of your own back yard ( a back yard which is apparently sacrosanct to the population of the town ) compared to leaving behind some crap to somewhere you'll most likely never visit again? Not on the same scale at all really.

And, my initial remark was made in reply to penelope's suggestion that I might like to help with clearing up whatever has been left on Stroud green. Yeah right - I'm no more likely to do that than I am help clear up Victoria Park after a hot weekend.

Posted by: massifheed Aug 9 2012, 11:01 AM

I seriously doubt that even you believe that.

In any case, being asked to move on from somewhere they had pitched up illegally hardly excuses them from leaving a load of crap behind, does it?

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 11:02 AM

Well you do seem to like your travelling friends, so maybe you would like to clear up their human **** that they leave behind.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 11:05 AM

A bit of give & take




( waits for the obvious )

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 11:06 AM

Which bit of Yeah right - I'm no more likely to do that than I am help clear up Victoria Park after a hot weekend. are you having trouble understanding?

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 11:16 AM

Not required, they pitch illegally they should be kicked off within hours. No one likes them and no one wants them.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 11:19 AM

I feel Godwin's Law soon to be invoked.........but well done for not stating the obvious.

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 9 2012, 11:21 AM

Abit like social housing, everyone accepts its needed but no one wants a council estate on their door step.

Posted by: Adrian Hollister Aug 9 2012, 11:35 AM

Perhaps we could provide facilities for them rather than keep moving them from site to site without any basics - toilets, waste disposal etc. We don't treat our canal users like this and they move through our region all the time.

Posted by: Penelope Aug 9 2012, 11:50 AM

Well for one, the canal users are generally considered 'Tourism', secondly most of the boats are hired which goes into the local economy and thirdly of course, most of these canal users are employed and pay PAYE, VAT and council tax.

Whereas on the other hand, the vast majority of 'Travellers' leach off society.

Hmmm wonder which one you would prefer at the back of your garden?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 9 2012, 12:12 PM

dannyboy does have a point: the locals are just as capable of leaving their detritus as any other social group. Just look at the Market Place first thing on a Sunday morning, ergo settlers are just as capable as anyone else at being anti-social in that regard. I suppose the counter to that argument is that (many of us) contribute to a fund that pays for the clear up.

What I would say though is that I would, as a traveller, try to be extra vigilant in this regard, knowing I represent a minority group who have a bad press.

Posted by: Simon Aug 9 2012, 12:49 PM

Interestingly my caravan was stolen a few weeks ago from a local secure storage facility, luckily for me the caravan was recovered a couple of days later by the police who arrested a man for other crimes, and had my caravan with him.

Can anyone guess what group of people this man belonged to?

Posted by: HJD Aug 9 2012, 01:02 PM

As long as it's not near your house i take it !!

Posted by: Penelope Aug 9 2012, 01:04 PM

Go on, give us a clue.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 01:06 PM

Lol,

reminds me of an old Jack Dee joke.

if 5% of road accidents are caused by drunk drivers, 7% of accidents by speeding drivers & 10% by bad drivers, that means 78% of accidents are caused by safe, sober slow drivers.....but who gets all the bad press?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 9 2012, 01:25 PM

European?

Posted by: Baffers100 Aug 9 2012, 01:50 PM

I've got this- a middle class tory tax payer?

Can't say a traveller now can we!

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 9 2012, 01:51 PM

Statistically, given the local area, you'd be onto a sure thing.

Posted by: MoonPhoenix Aug 9 2012, 03:42 PM

Na, all wrong. His a soon to be initiate of the involuntary incarceration club.

Posted by: Nothing Much Aug 9 2012, 04:05 PM

Nice to see you posting again MoonPhoenix. But even I am outfoxed by your last comment.
I am sure it is something to do with being thrown into the slammer, with MPs judges,lords and even worse.
Randy goats...... (You are a very naughty boy ce)
ce

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 9 2012, 08:03 PM

That, of course, is rubbish. (Yes I know it's only a joke but you are using it as a comparison.)
Nearly all accidents (crashes) are caused by bad driving.
The only ones that aren't are usually caused by some kind of mechanical failure. Rare these days.

Posted by: NORTHENDER Aug 9 2012, 08:56 PM

No, I argue with you because you are a two faced hypocrite. You come on here calling all and sundry Cheats, thieves, scroungers and scum, all while sitting at you work station. The good people on here gives you no credence whatsoever they know what you are. As for banning me, admin can go ahead, I could not care less.

Posted by: andy1979uk Aug 10 2012, 08:32 AM

Guess you can't read, I'll not rise to any of your insults anymore. Go and bother someone else.

Posted by: admin Aug 10 2012, 09:29 AM

I think the thread has rather lost its way. Let's move on shall we?