Overcrowded trains, Sardines Options

[Mark NWN]

Hi everybody,

Overcrowded trains

Anyone who takes the train through Newbury, Reading, Oxford, etc to London and back will be familiar with this problem.

Train overcrowding is getting worse according to Department of Transport figures with some early morning commutes having double the capacity of passengers on board.

If you have a view on it, or photographic evidence, please reply to this thread or get in touch with me mark.taylor@newburynews.co.uk

Cheers.

[Bloggo]

Hi everybody,

Overcrowded trains

Anyone who takes the train through Newbury, Reading, Oxford, etc to London and back will be familiar with this problem.

Train overcrowding is getting worse according to Department of Transport figures with some early morning commutes having double the capacity of passengers on board.

If you have a view on it, or photographic evidence, please reply to this thread or get in touch with me mark.taylor@newburynews.co.uk

Cheers.

I don't travel on the trains to London however having read the article and listened to people who do there seems to me to be a huge H and S risk in cramming more people into carriages than they were designed to carry never mind the discomfort.
Isn't there some law defining how many people a train can carry safely?

[Mark NWN]

I don't travel on the trains to London however having read the article and listened to people who do there seems to me to be a huge H and S risk in cramming more people into carriages than they were designed to carry never mind the discomfort.
Isn't there some law defining how many people a train can carry safely?

You would certainly think so, it's not like you could get away with it anywhere else, like a pub or a classroom etc.

I am chasing up FGW for a response...

[Dodgys smarter b...]

Unlike Bus, Coach. and Air Travel Companies, the Train Operators (as well as the Underground) are exempt form any legislation regarding overcrowding.

Their argument runs " if your daft enough to get on an overcrowded train, that's your fault"

Our argument might run " put more ruddy trains on then", or "make 'em longer"

Unfortunately, very few of the train operators actually own their own rolling stock, (they lease it), and since they are driven by the profit motive, bonuses and shareholders, they are not about to purchase or lease anymore carriages which may end up just standing about in sidings during the day when the peak times are over. This, to them, is just like having capital stood around doing nothing.

That's why they won't budge unless they are pushed.

Cheer up, all may not be lost, The McNulty Report “Realising the Potential of Britain’s Railways” contains a proposal tucked away on Page 121 that invites the Department for Transport to consider financial penalties on Train Operating Companies for exceeding overcrowding limits.
Of course, the fines would have to be of the magnitude that forced them to get the extra stock needed (otherwise it would just be cheaper to pay the fine)

As to this Government having the ba**s to impliment that idea? your guess is as good as mine.

Don't forget all those donations Cameron got from the Train and Bus operating companies, might make him just a little luke-warm on proper change. But then that's why they did it, And yes, I know, all parties get donations and have paymasters, but in this case we're discussing the overcrowding on trains caused by A/ not enough seats, and B/ not enough trains.

[GrumblingAgain]

I am not a commuter but I last week I caught the 18:06 HST Paddington to Frome, stopping Twyford, Reading, Theale, Thatcham, Newbury and then usual stations further down the line. The train was completely full with people standing in the coach isles and jammed solid in the end sections by the doors.

When the train made its first stop at Twyford, from where I was standing between coaches A and B I could see that more than half of those 2 coaches emptied. So from Twyford, most if not all passengers could get a seat. From Reading where there was another mass exodus, there were ample spare seats available throughout the train.

Without a doubt it was the Twyford passengers which overloaded the Frome express train so maybe the semi fast trains which do Paddington Slough Maidenhead Twyford and Reading could be strengthened and the HST expresses cease stopping at those stations before Reading! Keep those short distance commuters on their local services and not on the longer distance expresses. Just a though.

[user23]

Perhaps tickets for the local services could be made cheaper but not be valid on the HSTs.

[On the edge]

As a sporadic but regular train user, FGW improved for a while, but seems to have stopped again. Going to London during the normal commuting times, I feel for the people trying to get on at Thatcham, or worse Theale or Reading - pay the earth for a ticket and treated like cattle. Coming back isn't much better. Either jammed into a mobile open lavatory, or squeezed in to one of the West Country, standing to Reading. Even the platforms used at Paddington make Newbury passengers feel like second class beings - Platform 10! Still suits the ambience of the station - plywood shuttering which has been in place for at least 5 years - is that really how long a simple paint job takes!! So, I've started arranging my work around Basingstoke - yes some station disruption whilst they spruce it up, but at least seats are available even at peak times. Can't understand why FGW can't copy SW Trains - where even the local trains are clean.

[GrumblingAgain]

Perhaps tickets for the local services could be made cheaper but not be valid on the HSTs.

Of course that will be achieved by the prices of the local services rising significantly and the HST prices rising even more than that. At no point will prices ever come down.

[Biker1]

What's the answer eh?
Who will pay for all this extra rolling stock that is needed to give every commuter a seat and will spend most of the day running around empty or sitting in a siding?
A problem that has vexed the railways since their inception.
Lets have your solutions please!

[dannyboy]

What's the answer eh?
Who will pay for all this extra rolling stock that is needed to give every commuter a seat and will spend most of the day running around empty or sitting in a siding?
A problem that has vexed the railways since their inception.
Lets have your solutions please!

In the 'good old days' rolling stock was a one off capital cost & Railway companies built their own in their own factories so the capital cost was very low. Spread over the useful lifetime of the carriage the cost was very small indeed. The difference in running costs between a locomotive pulling 5 or 8 carriages is minimal, almost nil. This is why trains used to have guards vans & buffet cars - the cost of pulling them along with the rest of the train was practically nil.

Now of course we have companies who exist just to make a yearly profit from the leasing of rolling stock to train operators, so naturally the cost is artificially high. To avoid paying a unrealistic rental on an asset they'll never own & only use part of the time the train operators only rent the absolute minimum needed.

[Biker1]

In the "good old days" we had a locomotive and coaches - all separate.
Now we have fixed formation trains with no flexibility.
Cheaper to run but lost the ability to lengthen if needed.
You are right in saying that the coaches were a one off capital cost (bar relatively small running costs) whereas now there is the recurring cost of leasing.
By the way, who on this forum voted for the government which thought it was a good idea to "privatise" the railways to be run for profit? (But still subsidised by the taxpayer)
Oh and the HST's do have guards vans & buffet cars.
And OTE, SWT have had all their stock replaced over the last 8 years with Siemens Desiros.
FGW's is much older than that.
And don't say just go out and buy some more - that is all governed by the DfT.
OTE, - Platform 9-12 at Paddington is now finished.

[Brewmaster]

Perhaps tickets for the local services could be made cheaper but not be valid on the HSTs.

There are already Travelcards which do not permit travel to London earlier than 0857 and back on certain trains between 4.30 and 7 pm.

[Andy Capp]

By the way, who on this forum voted for the government which thought it was a good idea to "privatise" the railways to be run for profit? (But still subsidised by the taxpayer)

Perhaps the alternative was no bidders?

[GrumblingAgain]

There must be plenty of second-hand rakes of coaches lying around dormant and a dozen or so spare locomotives stored around the country. What has happened to all the coaches that were used on the West Coast Mainline before the Virgin Pendolinos came into service for example? Surely some leasing company could snap them up and offer them to FGW or even a new operator just to be used for peak services, at much cheaper prices? Having them lying around idle outside of the peaks is therefore not much of an issue. Maintenance would be minimum because they are not used much, and cheap because it can be done during the day. Apart from the locomotives, the coaches will need very little maintenance.

Perhaps then 6 sets of say 10 or 12 coaches can be created (like 20 years ago). Using the evening peak as an example - 2 sets run just Paddington to Reading with maybe one set returning empty to Paddington to do another Paddington to Reading turn. 2 sets run Paddington to Newbury and 2 sets run Paddington to Oxford. All that is then needed is a method to stop Newbury/Oxford/Reading passengers from getting on and overcrowding the longer distance trains eg Bristol, Swansea, Exeter, Plymouth, Hereford etc. Ticket barriers at Paddington could ensure that although I don't know how it could be done at Reading in the morning peak to stop commuters from overloading London bound long distance trains.

To avoid expensive running around, put a locomotive on each end (just like what the HSTs are really).

This could then free up enough Turbo units which can lengthen the local station Paddington to Slough stoppers and the Paddington to Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading semi-fasts. I don't think I have ever seen the Turbos running that are longer than 6 cars (3x3) (but maybe wrong). Surely Turbos can go up to 9 or 12 cars?

[JeffG]

To avoid expensive running around, put a locomotive on each end (just like what the HSTs are really).

How would that work? The locomotives on an HST are linked electronically so that the push and pull are balanced to place a zero load on the central couplings (or so I recall reading a long time ago).

And if the trailing locomotive were just being pulled as a dead weight, surely that would be even more expensive?

Just a thought. Getting into dangerous trainspotter territory here

[GrumblingAgain]

How would that work? The locomotives on an HST are linked electronically so that the push and pull are balanced to place a zero load on the central couplings (or so I recall reading a long time ago).

And if the trailing locomotive were just being pulled as a dead weight, surely that would be even more expensive?

Just a thought. Getting into dangerous trainspotter territory here

Can't be that difficult to install some kind of control cable through the coaches to connect the 2 locomotives. It's not like these coaches would be split up and used on other routes.

[On the edge]

In the "good old days" we had a locomotive and coaches - all separate.
Now we have fixed formation trains with no flexibility.
Cheaper to run but lost the ability to lengthen if needed.
You are right in saying that the coaches were a one off capital cost (bar relatively small running costs) whereas now there is the recurring cost of leasing.
By the way, who on this forum voted for the government which thought it was a good idea to "privatise" the railways to be run for profit? (But still subsidised by the taxpayer)
Oh and the HST's do have guards vans & buffet cars.
And OTE, SWT have had all their stock replaced over the last 8 years with Siemens Desiros.
FGW's is much older than that.
And don't say just go out and buy some more - that is all governed by the DfT.
OTE, - Platform 9-12 at Paddington is now finished.

You are right of course! That just leaves the rest of the refurbishment! Hope the rest doesn't take as long, or we'll be back to steam. It also leaves the minor issue of the walk (nearly to Ealing) from the concourse to the platform edge which ain't too good for people not too good on their legs. Still its only trains for Newbury and we don't complain!

Your synopsys about the trains is very informative. Suggests in transport circles that progress eliminates flexibility. There is an old saying isn't there - 'what a way to run a railway' wonder how that arose!

[Dodgys smarter b...]

Perhaps the alternative was no bidders?

Not too far from the truth. And the Government was very afraid of that senario. The way they finally got rail companies to tender was by keeping the subsidies, but then getting the rail operators to bid for "who could run it for the smallest".

The operators didn't have to put in any of their own money at all, they only had to bid on who would take the smallest hand-out from the taxpayer, whilst maintaing a service. This was how the government got potential operators interested. (best not to mention the number of Cabinet Ministers who then went on to find work as 'advisors' and non-exec's on the rail operators Boards - as a thank-you)

The McNulty report is one way to go, but I can't help but feel the overcrowding is not going to get sustantially better until the Rail companies are brough back under public control and are allowed to build their own rolling stock.

[NewburyP]

With fares rising it will become uneconomical for many to commute; maybe we should be looking to find ways to get jobs created closer to Newbury or alternatively look at home working.

[On the edge]

With fares rising it will become uneconomical for many to commute; maybe we should be looking to find ways to get jobs created closer to Newbury or alternatively look at home working.

That's the classic answer not quite so easy to put into practice. Home working isn't a viable alternative for very many people. News breaking tonight - European railways cost substantially less to run and maintain than ours. This suggests the 'gravy trains' that operate in the non competitive side should be stopped. One big saving would be the Rail Regulator - large staff, large salaries, zero effect. I'd love to work locally - but that's another thread called poor planning practice.