European Union., In or Out? Options

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Do you want to leave the European Union or stay in?

[On the edge]

Right now, I think out.

Much as I thought the EU was a good idea, it's turned into an expensive bureaucratic nightmare. It's pretty clear that reform will be strongly resisted every step of the way and will take an inordinate time. So let's just finish and see where destiny takes us.

[Simon Kirby]

Do you want to leave the European Union or stay in?

If there was a referendum tomorrow and I was forced to choose one way or the other, I might well choose out because Europe is about as admin-heavy as it can get, and as a small-state laissez-faire liberal I don't like that. I think coming out would leave us both economically and socially isolated from Europe and I can't see that being a good thing, but I think the growing antipathy towards foreigners is probably a bigger social ill so I'm largely persuaded that the lesser of two evils is to secede.

But TDH, it's pretty far down my list of political concerns.

[blackdog]

I think the growing antipathy towards foreigners is probably a bigger social ill so I'm largely persuaded that the lesser of two evils is to secede.

Interestingly I see it the other way - secession would (IMO) feed the growth of nationalistic xenophobia and serve only to ioslate and marignalise the UK. I'll be voting to stay in the EU if I ever get the chance.

[Simon Kirby]

Interestingly I see it the other way - secession would (IMO) feed the growth of nationalistic xenophobia and serve only to ioslate and marignalise the UK. I'll be voting to stay in the EU if I ever get the chance.

As an aside, I make a major distinction between nationalism in the positive sense of national pride and belonging, and xenophobia in the negative sense of hating and fearing foreigners and believing one's nationality superior, and it frustrates me that the two are frequently conflated.

But it would appear that our concerns are at any rate the same, and it's not clear to me which of us has the better solution.

[On the edge]

Yes, an 'out' vote would inevitably lead to an initial increase in xenophobia, but once the real cost and consequence was seen, that would fast dissipate. Simply, we could succeed on our own, but eventually. It would take a good few decades during which our living standard could well drop. In that gap, we'd have to 'grow up fast', to earn our keep in the World - which means being nice to customers....Adam Smith again!

[Andy Capp]

Being in or out will make little difference in my view.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Being in or out will make little difference in my view.

But it would be nice to have a say and listen properly to both sides of the argument before making a personal decision. It would also put an end to it all (for another 40 years or so...)

[r.bartlett]

I remember discussing the common market with my father who suggested the result would affect me more than him. I felt then it was a betrayal of the commonwealth of to join. He voted yes. I believe he died regretting the betrayal of the British people by successive governments all of which were and reman **** bent on us becoming part of a federal Europe.

The liberals are at least honest by saying they would sell us out to the EU asap, labour strongly hint they would and conservatives lie but in the end it's been a progressive creep since that fateful day Jan 1st 1973.

I pretty much dispise everything the EU has become and a out vote would be the best for the world as the EU ideology died a slow painful death by bankruptcy on all fronts: politically morally and financially

And it would be good ridance to the stinking cesspit of corruption it has become. :-)

[newres]

It strikes me that our own current government is about as corrupt as it gets. I mean corrupt in the sense of its motives being for support of their own social class and a willingness to jump on populist bandwagons if it will gain a few votes. I think that the EU overarching legal and financial restrictions bring a restraining influence.

[Turin Machine]

Out.

[JeffG]

:-)

And this is how you end your diatribe?

[r.bartlett]

And this is how you end your diatribe?

It was more a statement of fact which has no counter.

The common market was currupt from the start with wine lakes and butter mountains. Nothing has changed. The auditors have criticised the accounts every year for the last 20 and the powers that be ignore them because they are untouchable.

[JeffG]

It was more a statement of fact which has no counter.

Use of words like "betrayal", "sell out", "fateful", "dispise" (sic), "stinking cesspit" etc. strikes me more as a statement of opinion than fact. A diatribe, in fact.

[GMR]

I would vote out.

[On the edge]

Use of words like "betrayal", "sell out", "fateful", "dispise" (sic), "stinking cesspit" etc. strikes me more as a statement of opinion than fact. A diatribe, in fact.

Nonetheless, descriptive, and according to the media, fits the perception of many. What adjectives woukd you use to describe the EU, positive ones are permitted!!

I'll have a go - laudable (it is a good idea in concept at least), corrupt (financial audits not signed off for several years), unaccountable (continuing silence from elected members, wasteful (costly unnecessary permanent admin swap between Brussels and France),

[x2lls]

Nonetheless, descriptive, and according to the media, fits the perception of many. What adjectives woukd you use to describe the EU, positive ones are permitted!!

I'll have a go - laudable (it is a good idea in concept at least), corrupt (financial audits not signed off for several years), unaccountable (continuing silence from elected members, wasteful (costly unnecessary permanent admin swap between Brussels and France),

So, UKIP have got it right then!!

[On the edge]

So, UKIP have got it right then!!

It's hard to disagree and to be honest, I haven't heard a convincing case 'for' even from the most Europhile party.

[newres]

So, UKIP have got it right then!!

Yes, they seem to have captured a Daily Mail/Sun inspired right wing, xenophobic mood.

[Simon Kirby]

So, UKIP have got it right then!!

I think they have got all of those things right that OtE listed, yes. I'm also impressed with some of the no-nonsense common sense that some in UKIP have brought to local government - remember the UKIP councillor who stood up to that awful harridan when the poor chap wanted to film the council meeting? I find this aspect of the party very appealing. I have no doubt that UKIP has attracted very many decent moderates who have had enough of the political gravy train just as I have, but I am worried about how much antipathy I'm seeing directed towards the social liberals such as myself.