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> Grammar Schools: Yea or Nay?
JeffG
post Sep 8 2016, 06:38 PM
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Nowt wrong with Grammar Schools. We all need servants (who go to the other place) after all...
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On the edge
post Sep 8 2016, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Sep 8 2016, 07:38 PM) *
Nowt wrong with Grammar Schools. We all need servants (who go to the other place) after all...


Actually, I'm beginning to agree. In theory the very flawed 1944 Act was corrected by tge move to comprehensive secondary education. Regrettably, instead of 'levelling up', comprehensives in practice did the reverse and levelled down. So, whilst the tripartite split did produce gold, silver and concrete to some degree, we ended up with just concrete throughout the spectrum. Our schools should not be out stations of social services or sinks for social experimentation. However, I'd have just one demand, entry should be by a fair and properly administered intelligence assessment; and not one Mummy and Daddy can circumnavigate.


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Andy Capp
post Sep 8 2016, 07:57 PM
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Grammar schools are fine, provided you can get into one. They offer the comfortably well-off cheap high class education. One has therefore to ask if that is equitable. Servants need training too and there are a lot more of them about than posh well spoken toffs.
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On the edge
post Sep 8 2016, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 8 2016, 08:57 PM) *
Grammar schools are fine, provided you can get into one. They offer the comfortably well-off cheap high class education. One has therefore to ask if that is equitable. Servants need training too and there are a lot more of them about than posh well spoken toffs.


Yes, that's the nub of the issue. Admission has to be in the basis of merit.

Ironically, there are a surprising number of less well off reactionary Tories who are wholly against Grammar schools - knowing their own off spring would find merit based admission rather too much of a challenge.

Similarly, a new real merit based grammar school dropped into the area, leaving the existing schools demonstrably without the elite would reduce property prices in some wards. Imagine, Newbury's merit entry grammar school built next to the hospital....


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Andy Capp
post Sep 8 2016, 08:49 PM
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And all dependant on an exam in one year.
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Blake
post Sep 8 2016, 10:30 PM
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Really in favour as long as places go those within the local town and villages, say up to 8 miles radius.
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Andy1
post Sep 9 2016, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 8 2016, 08:57 PM) *
Grammar schools are fine, provided you can get into one. They offer the comfortably well-off cheap high class education. One has therefore to ask if that is equitable. Servants need training too and there are a lot more of them about than posh well spoken toffs.


Really? So if you want your child to go to one of the top 30 Secondary Schools in the country, you have to live in catchment. This means paying more to buy or rent property because of the catchment, which also means you have to be financially well off.
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Andy Capp
post Sep 9 2016, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Sep 8 2016, 11:30 PM) *
Really in favour as long as places go those within the local town and villages, say up to 8 miles radius.

QUOTE (Andy1 @ Sep 9 2016, 01:55 PM) *
Really? So if you want your child to go to one of the top 30 Secondary Schools in the country, you have to live in catchment. This means paying more to buy or rent property because of the catchment, which also means you have to be financially well off.

Agreed, which in turn puts more pressure on the housing market and the less mobile.
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JeffG
post Sep 9 2016, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Sep 8 2016, 11:30 PM) *
Really in favour as long as places go those within the local town and villages, say up to 8 miles radius.

Realistically, to have choice, restricting the catchment area would require a lot more new schools. I was lucky enough to go to a good grammar school in Bristol, and lived 13 miles away. In those days, everything was paid for by a county scholarship, and I also got a free bus pass.

Having said that, I am not sure that relaxing the current rules on grammar schools today is a good idea. It is unlikely to be popular with the electorate at large, so in my opinion, a bad move. As educational experts have pointed out, the existing system of academies and comprehensives seems to be doing a reasonably good job at the moment.
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On the edge
post Sep 9 2016, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Sep 9 2016, 02:58 PM) *
Realistically, to have choice, restricting the catchment area would require a lot more new schools. I was lucky enough to go to a good grammar school in Bristol, and lived 13 miles away. In those days, everything was paid for by a county scholarship, and I also got a free bus pass.

Having said that, I am not sure that relaxing the current rules on grammar schools today is a good idea. It is unlikely to be popular with the electorate at large, so in my opinion, a bad move. As educational experts have pointed out, the existing system of academies and comprehensives seems to be doing a reasonably good job at the moment.


Yes, it's odd isn't it. I'm not going to make any points about 'experts' but if that's considered opinion of our peers, why the clamour for Grammar schools? After all a streamed comprehensive provides the self same education doesn't it? So, why is little Tarquin's mummy and daddy so desperate for him to go to Poshford Grammar rather than Poshford Hill Comprehensive? If they really are going to be filled 'on merit' there is a distinct possibility that the majority of the intake could come from the wrong end of town and as places are limited, there is also that same possibility Tarquin' doesn't make the grade.


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Andy Capp
post Sep 9 2016, 03:53 PM
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It's a shame all schools weren't grammar schools!
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JeffG
post Sep 9 2016, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 9 2016, 04:53 PM) *
It's a shame all schools weren't grammar schools!

That obviously wouldn't have worked, since grammar schools were selective. You are describing the comprehensive system.
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blackdog
post Sep 9 2016, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (Andy1 @ Sep 9 2016, 01:55 PM) *
Really? So if you want your child to go to one of the top 30 Secondary Schools in the country, you have to live in catchment. This means paying more to buy or rent property because of the catchment, which also means you have to be financially well off.

When I went to the local grammar school there was no need to worry about catchment areas - every house was in the catchment area for a grammar school.
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On the edge
post Sep 9 2016, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Sep 9 2016, 05:03 PM) *
That obviously wouldn't have worked, since grammar schools were selective. You are describing the comprehensive system.


Quite, the comprehensives can have grammar streams, which were selective, what's the difference?

Equally, most secondary schools teach the national curriculum and enter pupils for exactly the same national examinations. Do the 'brightest' 20 per cent of these schools do significantly worse?

In reality, those clamouring for the return of grammar schools are really after a public school education. They see Grammars as a Winchester or Harrow without the cost. So then, what about simply installing a few beds in schools, so children 'from less privileged backgrounds' can board and so enjoy the public school advantage?


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Andy Capp
post Sep 9 2016, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (JeffG @ Sep 9 2016, 05:03 PM) *
That obviously wouldn't have worked, since grammar schools were selective. You are describing the comprehensive system.

My word you're hard work! 😉
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Andy Capp
post Sep 9 2016, 10:05 PM
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I anticipate it to be a gimmic: reletively little money and claim they've solve a problem that, like the NHS reform, doesn't exist.
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On the edge
post Sep 10 2016, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 9 2016, 11:05 PM) *
I anticipate it to be a gimmic: reletively little money and claim they've solve a problem that, like the NHS reform, doesn't exist.


Yes, it looks as if you are quite right. In basic terms, make Grammar a species of Academy; job done; and Mrs Posh votes in the bag


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JeffG
post Sep 10 2016, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 9 2016, 09:59 PM) *
My word you're hard work! 😉

tongue.gif
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Andy1
post Sep 10 2016, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Sep 9 2016, 06:32 PM) *
When I went to the local grammar school there was no need to worry about catchment areas - every house was in the catchment area for a grammar school.


Exactly
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post Sep 10 2016, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Sep 9 2016, 06:32 PM) *
When I went to the local grammar school there was no need to worry about catchment areas - every house was in the catchment area for a grammar school.


And therein lies the rub. The then 'catchment area' was the area of the LEA. If they had a couple of big grammar schools, the top percentage got a place, even if they had to travel several miles, it was at least free. However, if they only had a small grammar school, particularly if it was direct grant and also took paying pupils, the top percentage still got a place, still got free travel, BUT the top percentage was very much smaller! That's equality of opportunity is it?


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