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Posted by: motormad Mar 25 2013, 08:46 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21923218

As try as I might, I've never caused a blood injury by stabbing someone with a Dorito.

Discuss.

Posted by: GMR Mar 25 2013, 09:18 PM

It seems the logic of their actions is as follows; if I hit you with a brick in the face the brick should be reshaped/ re-designed and the thrower of the brick should be let off. This is political correctness gone mad. The boy who threw the piece of food should be punished and or expelled. And how is re shaping a piece of food - from a triangle to a square - going to stop injury if it is used as a weapon? I am surprised that this school and or the person who decided to take such action is not hounded out of school for gross stupidity.

Posted by: user23 Mar 25 2013, 09:22 PM

This isn't political correctness.

Posted by: newres Mar 25 2013, 09:24 PM

'elf n' safety.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 25 2013, 09:26 PM

Always the establishment apologist, eh User?

Posted by: user23 Mar 25 2013, 09:48 PM

To be honest this is a complete non-story.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 25 2013, 09:52 PM

Exactly so. Only no systematic risk assessment and post-accident investigation would ban triangular food.

Being hit in the eye with food thrown in a food fight does pose a risk of eye-injury, but banning all hard-edged food isn't going to be a reasonable or proportionate mitigation. If stuff is being thrown in the canteen then that's the problem to solve. And as I understand it it's only the triangular flapjacks that are banned, the square ones are fine - as if a 45 degree angle is going to make any difference.

So once again we have knuckle-dragging administroids failing to use the sense they were born with and humiliating themselves in the public media while Health and Safety culture is lampooned. I'd hope it was just a spoof, but it really seems to have happened.

It would all be a good laugh, but you will still find workmen up and down the country using power tools on building sites and in workshops, and probably more so in home DIY, without their eye-protection because to them 'elf n' safety is all a big joke.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 25 2013, 09:55 PM

You're right, it is, but I see a lot of health-and-safety bashing and it really damages what should be a positive attitude to health and safety in the workplace, and that's something that I care about.

Posted by: On the edge Mar 25 2013, 10:06 PM

The thing to be banned should be poor dinner time supervision! School boys have a natural tendency to fight, indeed throw things. What actually kept us semi civilised at least was a long thin thing kept by a bad tempered deputy head. That and some refined humiliation. All fully supported by my and other mothers.

Posted by: motormad Mar 25 2013, 10:10 PM

An expulsion for throwing food?

Why are you at home today Tommy? I stabbed a kid in the face with a protractor.
Hey little Danny, why are you at home today? I called the teacher a hooker.
Hey little Billy, why are you at home? I threw a popsicle at Kevin.

Surely though a square is 4 times more dangerous than a triangle, because a triangle has 3 sharp corners and a square or rectangle has 4. That surely means that one has higher likelyhood of being hit with an acute angle than one does with a triangle?

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 25 2013, 10:45 PM

No because a square doesn't have any acute angles.

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 25 2013, 10:51 PM

I can see the logic - things that are less pointy do less damage. Unless the school cooks are making flapjacks so badly they can be classed as blunt instruments.

Posted by: On the edge Mar 26 2013, 07:45 AM

Punishments fitting crimes; the situation should not have arisen in the first place! So answering your questions

- I'm at home because I was violently aggressive and out of control.
- I'm at home because I have a foul mouth and was using abusive language and out of control
- I'm at home because when I can't get my own way I just get angry and can't be controlled
and perhaps
- Mum, you've got to help me, stop saying I'm perfect and slagging off the teachers when they show me where I'm going wrong.
- Mum, I get frightened that all I'll be fit for when I leave school is gaol.

Blaming the cook is inane. A bit like a Magistrate letting you off not seeing road signs stopping you driving over a bridge because you've just had a McDonalds orange squash full of e numbers and then banning orange squash sales!

Posted by: motormad Mar 26 2013, 09:08 AM

But children will be children, OTE. There is a line drawn between violent or abusive behavior (which needs to be repeated over a long period of time) and "being a child" behaviour.

Of which throwing a bit of food is classed as childish behavior. It's not always the parents fault, kids do develop on their own you might be surprised to hear. You can have the best parents in the world and the kid can still turn out bad.

Posted by: On the edge Mar 26 2013, 12:01 PM

\wholly agree and I'm a living example. Banning 'triangular flapjack' is just someone PC head teacher being a silly a***, in all probasbility to cover their own ineptitude. All that this does (as said before) is take the real goodness out of health and safety.

Even without triangular flapjack, us schoolboys would have found other things to throw or hammer with - table leg for instance!

Posted by: user23 Mar 26 2013, 02:26 PM

How does going from three corners to four make something four times as dangerous?

Surely it's 75% more dangerous?

Posted by: Strafin Mar 26 2013, 02:40 PM

Or 25%

Posted by: JeffG Mar 26 2013, 02:53 PM

In the interests of pedantry, when was a square not rectangular?

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 26 2013, 03:18 PM

When a rectangle is not a rhombus!

Posted by: GMR Mar 26 2013, 03:43 PM

This isn't just about throwing food but about discipline and controlling kids. According to one paper this was deliberate attack; if that is case then it is assault. A recent report says that today more and more kids are out of control, with no discipline. All you have to look at your jokey comment to see what is wrong with society.

Posted by: GMR Mar 26 2013, 03:52 PM

Out of control behaviour has to start from somewhere. Give kids an inch and they will take a mile. Abusive behaviour starts with minor incidences and once the child believes they've got away with it they push things further.



And how do you know they are the best parents? Just because they look the best from outside doesn't mean they are actually good parents. It also works the other way; kids coming from rough homes can have good and disciplinarian parents. Bad childish behaviour is always somebody's fault; parents, lack of discipline at school or something else; including mental problems.



All children will act "childish" or push the boundaries but it is for authorities, parents, teacher etc to show kids their limits.

Posted by: Strafin Mar 26 2013, 04:07 PM

Really? You don't know the difference between a square and a rectangle?

Posted by: motormad Mar 26 2013, 04:24 PM

It starts from children being children. It's part of growing up. Something that kids often don't have chance to do. Abusive is classed as what? Throwing a bit of food is not really "abusive", it's kids having a foodfight.




It was an example. I didn't mention a specific case did I? I just said, and it's true because I was at school far more recently than you were, Bill Oddy, that a lot of the time, while generally rough parents will produce rough kids, plenty of well heeled parents' children turned into rough kids because of those who they chose to hang around with.
I always acted out in school, not violently but just by being a joker, and it wasn't my parents fault, it was just who I was.

"Bad childish behaviour" as you call it is not always someone's fault, sometimes it's just the kids fault is it? And acting out isn't indicative of mental problems.
This is why people your age can't comment because you haven't seen the school system or how kids are in the last 10 years.




Agreed, but also up to other kids to show other kids the limits...

Posted by: GMR Mar 26 2013, 04:43 PM

That is true, but also being a child is learning discipline, how far one can go, or not go. That is why we have guide lines and we give kids guidlines.

But this incident wasn't just kids having a food fight but an attack on another kids; the food was deliberately thrown to hurt. Kids don't do that unless there is something serious there. We all do stupid things but we had limits.





And I was using an example to your example.

You may have been at school far more recently than I, but I brought up kids more recently than when you were at school.

As for who kids hang around with; I agree. I am not disputing that but that doesn't change what I said about watching kids and discipline.



I was the same; but that is something different. Kids will be kids and bring out their own identity.



The people of "my age" brought up kids so do know what is happening. As for what is inside kids and what makes them do it. I do agree that some of the problems with kids comes from within, but in those cases they need help... and are usually getting it (hopefully)





In theory yes.

Posted by: motormad Mar 26 2013, 05:03 PM

Why not throw the plate, or cutlery. But food? I've in my life thought "YES, I WILL INFLICT PAIN AND SUFFERING BY THROWING THIS PIECE OF CAKE".



Kids are not stupid and can easily fool their parents. The amount of children who smoke weed for example (which I am not saying is right or wrong) and their parents who do not know - Doesn't make them bad parents. Most parents work full time, or as long as they possibly can, and try to maintain their own lives as well as finding time as a couple to do things, as well as bringing up their children; so things like that are missed.





It's very different to having a child at school and actually being there and seeing first hand what's going on and how school life is.

Posted by: GMR Mar 26 2013, 05:19 PM

Good question; but kids don't usually think and grab anything that is it hand. Who said he didn't want to throw a plate but was stopped from doing so or just never thought about it?





I agree that not all kids are stupid, but there parents, teachers and authority can be. People in society get away with things for a hole host of reasons; lethargy (of authority or parents), stupidity, school or society bureaucracy etc.




I agree to a point but I was a very hands on parent. In junior school I helped in the classroom and other places. When the kids were in high school I was involved; and my kids turned out all right and well disciplined. I am not suggesting that they were angels because no kids are. But I was there to point them in the right direction when things went wrong.

At the end of the day it is about how they turned out and are you happy with how they turned out. I am.

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Mar 26 2013, 05:36 PM

25% more surely?

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 26 2013, 05:50 PM

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't always a square.

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 26 2013, 05:57 PM

I think there is a big wedge of luck with how kids turn out, and how people turn out can only really be determined when their life has ended.

Posted by: blackdog Mar 26 2013, 06:35 PM

Or 33.3%

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 26 2013, 06:46 PM

Yes, 4 is 1 and 1/3 more than three, but 3 is 3/4 of 4.

Posted by: Darren Mar 26 2013, 07:36 PM

Simple answer

Gruel from a long trough bolted to the floor. No sharp edges on gruel.

Posted by: JeffG Mar 26 2013, 09:21 PM

A square is a special case of a rectangle, and a rectangle is a special case of a parallelogram.

A rectangle can only be a rhombus if it's a square.

(There - I out-pedanted Andy Capp!)

Posted by: NWNREADER Mar 26 2013, 09:25 PM

There is a proven history of the dangers of thrown food......



Now Ernie dragged him from his van and beneath the blazing sun,
They stood there face to face, and Ted went for his bun.
But Ernie was too quick, things didn't go the way Ted planned,
And a strawberry-flavoured yogurt sent it spinning from his hand.

Now Susie ran between them and tried to keep them apart,
And Ernie, he pushed her aside and a rock cake caught him underneath his heart.
And he looked up in pained surprise and the concrete hardened crust,
Of a stale pork pie caught him in the eye and Ernie bit the dust.

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 26 2013, 09:59 PM

Yes, although I was playing with words somewhat through a specious piece of logic, or logical fallacy (I can't remember what the proper word is for it), hence the tongue-in-cheek smiley.

When is a square (rhombus) not a rectangle, when a rectangle is not a rhombus (square).

Posted by: Strafin Mar 26 2013, 10:54 PM

Well it would see that you are all right. Maths is crazy.

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 26 2013, 10:55 PM

Stick the little sods in a barrel, feed them through the bunghole and only let them out when they are old enough to behave.

Posted by: motormad Mar 26 2013, 10:57 PM

So you are suggesting if there was a dagger the kid would have thrown that? It was nothing more, in all likely hood, than a little tizzy in which some kid goes "WELL YOU WANTED THIS LAST FLAPJACK SO MUCH YOU CAN HAVE IT MWWHAH" and threw it. If he was stopped from throwing a plate I'm sure the dinner ladies could keep such a lethal projectile as a flapjack at bay.





I think it's just fair to say you believe in complete accountability (that being, if something goes wrong it's always someones fault), and I don't think that's always true, especially when it comes to something as complicated as the human mind and social interactions




Involved how though? I am not debating you were a good or bad parent; you were probably very good, but when you are not there as a parent/helper and the kids are alone at lunch, or they are whispering things in class to each other, a lot of it goes unheard. Parents are not normally allowed in classes, at least not during 2002/2007 when I was at school. During the OFSTED reports all of the idiots and morons in the class shut up for that week, amazing what someone else watching in the room does for the general attitude..
I had very little guidance growing up for a variety of reasons and I too ended up alright and I have no-one to thank for that aside from myself. Yes it's of course helpful if someone is there to guide but generally, without any guidance, a good kid will make the "right" decision and a bad kid would make the "wrong" one.



I agree and if you're happy then that's the main thing

Posted by: MontyPython Mar 26 2013, 11:37 PM

You've never sampled my ex-wife's cooking then!

Posted by: Squelchy Mar 27 2013, 06:19 AM

We'll be the judge of that.

Posted by: motormad Mar 27 2013, 09:04 AM

Haha That bad?
It's lovely honey, you say as you pour the food into a nearby plant pot.



You have no right to judge me?

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 27 2013, 09:53 AM

Sadly he's right MM; our peers are our judges.

Posted by: motormad Mar 27 2013, 10:18 AM

He's not a peer though. As I have previously met Craig David, as outlined in a previous post, we roll in different circles most likely.
For one, he does not know a dog that can do a backflip.

Besides to judge, one must know. And in this case, one knows just about naff all.

Posted by: massifheed Mar 27 2013, 10:42 AM

People's opinions of you, on this forum at least, are formed by the content of your posts.

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 27 2013, 10:56 AM

I loved the bit about rolling in different circles! Still, made me chuckle.

Posted by: motormad Mar 27 2013, 11:08 AM

I tell you what, I might just have to look up that post again to have another chuckle.

Which is fine, because I don't care what people think about me on the forum.

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 27 2013, 11:21 AM

err a third more actually. If you have three corners & add one more....

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 27 2013, 11:22 AM

when it is an oblong.

Posted by: Andy Capp Mar 27 2013, 11:36 AM

Here's another old adage: 'if someone thinks you're a ****, you may as well be one'. The point is, whether someone is entitled to judge you or not, doesn't stop them from doing so.

Posted by: Turin Machine Mar 27 2013, 11:57 AM

"If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck"

Posted by: massifheed Mar 27 2013, 12:25 PM

That much is evident from the content of your posts.

Posted by: Squelchy Mar 27 2013, 01:26 PM

You can only judge a horse by the races it's run.

Posted by: Andy1 Mar 27 2013, 01:39 PM

Triangle flapjack on a plate or is there a hidden meaning in there. We're being taken over and don't even realise

Posted by: motormad Mar 27 2013, 02:40 PM

At least I'm honest about it.

Which can not be said for those in charge at the school which deemed a flapjack as a dangerous item.

Posted by: Squelchy Mar 27 2013, 03:09 PM

Where have they been dishonest?

Posted by: motormad Mar 27 2013, 03:29 PM

It's not dangerous though is it.
It's a tasty snack item. Next they will ban eclairs because they are being confused with Nuclear Torpedos.

Posted by: GMR Mar 27 2013, 04:47 PM

You are surmising as I am. We both are suggesting things to back up our arguments, nothing more, nothing less. Hypothesising is all part of forum life but the truth of the matter is neither of us know what actually happened; we can only draw conclusions by what we've read or what was said.




I believe in accountability as near as possible.

Even with the human mind there is always somebody to blame. If you are religious then you can blame God for the individuals faults, if you are atheist then it would be down to your DNA or genes.



Oh, I don't disagree with you here. We can't know everything as parents or teacher, but what we can do is try to observe, read between the lines and give advice where possible. People that are given good advice and helped where possible usually end up as good rounded kids.




Yes, you make a good point. There are many kids that have grown up in appalling conditions and with bad authority teachers but ended up good decent kids, while others have grown up in "perfect conditions" (as we see from outside) and have turned out bad. I could hypothesis about this but this isn't the place for that.





That is what it boils down to; for all of us.

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 27 2013, 08:53 PM

or the tenderness of the fillet.

Posted by: Exhausted Mar 27 2013, 10:09 PM

I thought a flapjack was a fairly soft piece of pastry so unlikely to cause any injury. Might get a bit of sugar in the eyeball but that would probably wash out with the tears.
What I don't understand is how a square flapjack is safer. Cut it from corner to corner and you now have two lethal weapons.

This really is a non story as someone suggested and if it really happened and was scaled up to the level of a national news story the whole lot should be ashamed.

Food fights are more likely to take place in public schools and top end universities and are seen as jolly good fun what.

Posted by: JeffG Mar 28 2013, 11:50 AM

I was going to joke that you could fashion a throwing star from one. Then I found http://www.tbotech.com/ninjagear/throwing-stars.htm. It just reinforces my view that the Americans are crazy when it comes to making deadly weapons legal.

Oh, hold on: at the bottom of the page it says "These are dangerous weapons and should be treated as such!". Phew! That's all right, then.

Posted by: stewiegriffin Mar 29 2013, 02:50 PM

You won't be saying that on the day you're cornered down a dark alley by a feral six year old wielding a viciously sharp dairylea triangle. And what if his mate is packing a slice of victoria sponge? What do you do then, eh?

Posted by: On the edge Mar 29 2013, 05:26 PM

Release the tiger and then eat the cake.

Posted by: motormad Mar 31 2013, 04:08 PM