IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Moderating market forces, Public service makes a comeback
On the edge
post Aug 16 2016, 08:22 PM
Post #1


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



Some news feeds are reporting that our new Prime Minister is finding inspiration in the works of that old Liberal Unionist Joe Chamberlain. The man who brought us municipalisation; in effect, local councils running the key de facto monopoly utilities, such as gas, water, electricity etc. The Torys are still the Conservative and Unionist party of course.

I must admit, for many years, that was something I'd wholly support. Before WW2, muncipal endeavour was broadly successful and in many cases gave the rationale for real local difference and independence.

So, on the face of it, I should be well pleased. Arguably, a far more effective solution than centralised nationalisation - simply because it creates an automatic and transparent real performance measure; there being more than one provider.

But for me, the real downside is the state that our municipality has arrived at locally. With the best will in the World, I really can't envision WBC, still less NTC being able to manage even the most basic service provision.

Is a return to municipalisation an unachievable idea?



--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
user23
post Aug 16 2016, 08:42 PM
Post #2


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 4,025
Joined: 14-May 09
Member No.: 50



QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 16 2016, 09:22 PM) *
Some news feeds are reporting that our new Prime Minister is finding inspiration in the works of that old Liberal Unionist Joe Chamberlain. The man who brought us municipalisation; in effect, local councils running the key de facto monopoly utilities, such as gas, water, electricity etc. The Torys are still the Conservative and Unionist party of course.

I must admit, for many years, that was something I'd wholly support. Before WW2, muncipal endeavour was broadly successful and in many cases gave the rationale for real local difference and independence.

So, on the face of it, I should be well pleased. Arguably, a far more effective solution than centralised nationalisation - simply because it creates an automatic and transparent real performance measure; there being more than one provider.

But for me, the real downside is the state that our municipality has arrived at locally. With the best will in the World, I really can't envision WBC, still less NTC being able to manage even the most basic service provision.

Is a return to municipalisation an unachievable idea?
It's already happening in some places.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Aug 17 2016, 06:38 AM
Post #3


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (user23 @ Aug 16 2016, 09:42 PM) *


Yes, its a very good illustration, but doesn't show the whole model. In effect, this is simply town hall trading, a bit like the Council running coffee shops at museums etc. I've no real issue with that, particularly if its sweating an asset to provide an extra income stream. The real point would be to take over and run the 'monopoly' element, the distribution side in general. So, for instance, a Council could run its monopoly transport undertaking again, fixed broadband provision wouldn't be BT's responsibility, neither would electricity distribution.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blackdog
post Aug 17 2016, 10:27 AM
Post #4


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,945
Joined: 5-June 09
Member No.: 130



I wouldn't disgard the idea because of the inefficiency/ineffectiveness of current councils. In many ways the councils we have are a product of what they are able to do (or not do). When Newbury Borough Council ran the local gas and electricity generation, schools, planning etc it was a very different beast from the NTC we have today.

A council with the power to make change, to actually do something, might attract a higher grade of councillor.

The centralisation of power both from local councils to central government and within councils from councillors to executives to mayors and PCCs has removed pretty much every element of local control from local people.

That said I don't really see where councils as small as NTC or WBC could do much in areas like electricity generation.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Aug 17 2016, 11:02 AM
Post #5


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 17 2016, 11:27 AM) *
I wouldn't disgard the idea because of the inefficiency/ineffectiveness of current councils. In many ways the councils we have are a product of what they are able to do (or not do). When Newbury Borough Council ran the local gas and electricity generation, schools, planning etc it was a very different beast from the NTC we have today.

A council with the power to make change, to actually do something, might attract a higher grade of councillor.

The centralisation of power both from local councils to central government and within councils from councillors to executives to mayors and PCCs has removed pretty much every element of local control from local people.

That said I don't really see where councils as small as NTC or WBC could do much in areas like electricity generation.


I suspect you are quite right; Joseph Chamberlain is a good example himself, a prominent businessman involving himself in local councils. Would he have even considered that simply for the chance of wearing a moth eaten costume and parading through the town once a year? Perhaps then this means we might see a County authority again.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Aug 17 2016, 11:25 AM
Post #6


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



I think the principle of local parish collectivism is a good one, and there are examples to be found where it works really well, Frome Town Council for example are extraordinarily good at it. The key to getting it right is inclusivity, but for it to work in Newbury you'd first need to find a couple of dozen people who were hugely committed to being inclusive and then they'd need to campaign against the established parties on an agenda that few people would have much interest in to get themselves elected as councillors, so it's not impossible, but you're talking about creating a whole new social movement. The problem is that parish councils are in practice unaccountable and when a council like Newbury goes bad it stays bad.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JeffG
post Aug 17 2016, 12:20 PM
Post #7


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 3,762
Joined: 14-May 09
Member No.: 56



I had never heard of Joseph Chamberlain until I read it here, so I looked him up. Father of the better-known Neville Chamberlain, it seems.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
user23
post Aug 17 2016, 03:57 PM
Post #8


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 4,025
Joined: 14-May 09
Member No.: 50



QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 17 2016, 11:27 AM) *
That said I don't really see where councils as small as NTC or WBC could do much in areas like electricity generation.
Sure, but as a shared service with other local authorities this might be a possibility for smaller councils.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Aug 17 2016, 04:37 PM
Post #9


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (user23 @ Aug 17 2016, 04:57 PM) *
Sure, but as a shared service with other local authorities this might be a possibility for smaller councils.

I would argue that local government should only be getting directly involved if the service is necessary and needs public money, and I would also want to see the local authority partnering a genuinely inclusive community organisation rather than dominating the thing. With something like renewables there is a clear public benefit and renewables can't generally compete with commercial power generation so there is certainly an argument to be made for local government involvement in renewables schemes.

However, there are other schemes that could potentially stand on their own feet as community projects but are not commercially viable and I really would like to see local government taking a lead, not in running these schemes, but in building the capacity of the community to run such schemes for themselves.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Aug 17 2016, 04:44 PM
Post #10


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (user23 @ Aug 17 2016, 04:57 PM) *
Sure, but as a shared service with other local authorities this might be a possibility for smaller councils.


Indeed; yet another lost art - the Joint Authority. Following on from JeffG's comment, Neville was indeed Joe's son, as was Austin. Neville is actually regarded by many historians as a very good 'home' Minister and Prime Minister; just not so hot when it came to foreign affairs. There is a very strong case for saying Nye Bevan would never have been able to implement the NHS so quickly had it not been for Chamberlain's reforms whilst he was Health Minister; he did that via local government and joint authorities


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Aug 17 2016, 04:58 PM
Post #11


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 17 2016, 12:25 PM) *
I think the principle of local parish collectivism is a good one, and there are examples to be found where it works really well, Frome Town Council for example are extraordinarily good at it. The key to getting it right is inclusivity, but for it to work in Newbury you'd first need to find a couple of dozen people who were hugely committed to being inclusive and then they'd need to campaign against the established parties on an agenda that few people would have much interest in to get themselves elected as councillors, so it's not impossible, but you're talking about creating a whole new social movement. The problem is that parish councils are in practice unaccountable and when a council like Newbury goes bad it stays bad.


I'd wholly agree with this, but the big question is how you break the stranglehold of party. From my experience, I haven't yet found a local political party group who are, or even have a segment of members who seriously interested in local matters let alone local government. They all seem interested only in using local politics as a means of seeding and nurturing support for Westminster. Even those making claims of independence are pretty heavily directed and pressured by party HO. There are the odd individuals who stand totally on their own; who are seemingly immune to any suggestion that co-operation might actually aid their cause. Nonetheless, there is a serious groundswell of discontent, which is warmer than many might imagine, with our local governance and the 'same old gang'. Would a traditional exploratory public meeting; however small, be a means of providing a first start?


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
user23
post Aug 17 2016, 06:07 PM
Post #12


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 4,025
Joined: 14-May 09
Member No.: 50



QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 17 2016, 05:44 PM) *
Indeed; yet another lost art - the Joint Authority.
Actually they're back in fashion, in the form of combined authorities.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Aug 17 2016, 07:10 PM
Post #13


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 17 2016, 05:58 PM) *
I'd wholly agree with this, but the big question is how you break the stranglehold of party. From my experience, I haven't yet found a local political party group who are, or even have a segment of members who seriously interested in local matters let alone local government. They all seem interested only in using local politics as a means of seeding and nurturing support for Westminster. Even those making claims of independence are pretty heavily directed and pressured by party HO. There are the odd individuals who stand totally on their own; who are seemingly immune to any suggestion that co-operation might actually aid their cause. Nonetheless, there is a serious groundswell of discontent, which is warmer than many might imagine, with our local governance and the 'same old gang'. Would a traditional exploratory public meeting; however small, be a means of providing a first start?

Indeed, it's a real disappointment, and a challenge to know what to do.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Aug 17 2016, 08:05 PM
Post #14


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (user23 @ Aug 17 2016, 07:07 PM) *
Actually they're back in fashion, in the form of combined authorities.


There are subtle differences. As I see it, a combined authority would be say WBC, Reading, Bracknell Forest, Wokingham, and Windsor /Maidenhead joining up to become a single authority for their combined areas. Whereas a joint authority was simply a jointly controlled organisation to deliver a single service in the sponsoring authority areas. Thames Valley Police was an example, but there were Joint Authorities delivering poor relief, and electricity etc.

Perhaps, another apparently beached concept might also help; co-operation.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 06:36 AM