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> Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters
Andy Capp
post Feb 22 2016, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Feb 22 2016, 02:01 PM) *
Got to be in. We do too much trade with the rest of Europe and anybody who is currently suggesting with certainty that leaving the EU will have absolutely no effect on this has their head in the clouds.

I doubt anyone is saying it will have absolutely no effect; however, can you explain why 'Out' would put our trade with the EU in jeopardy?
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James_Trinder
post Feb 22 2016, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 22 2016, 03:13 PM) *
I doubt anyone is saying it will have absolutely no effect; however, can you explain why 'Out' would put our trade with the EU in jeopardy?


Yes, because any company would implicitly have the backing of their government to screw us over at every possible opportunity.
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Simon Kirby
post Feb 22 2016, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 22 2016, 03:13 PM) *
I doubt anyone is saying it will have absolutely no effect; however, can you explain why 'Out' would put our trade with the EU in jeopardy?

I think that's a question that deserves a thorough answer. I see plenty of goods from plenty of non-European countries, so do these countries stop exporting to us because we're no longer in Europe, and if non-European countries can export to Europe won't Blighty be free to export its good to Europe just as easily if it leaves the EU?


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Biker1
post Feb 22 2016, 04:57 PM
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Out.

Looks like it may be the way we're going if the newbury Poll is anything to go by.
But don't speak too soon eh as the "out" vote has decreased from 65% from last week!
The current 10% waiting for Cameron should now have decided.
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Simon Kirby
post Feb 22 2016, 05:12 PM
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Maybe some of those voting out can say a bit more about what they're expecting to improve. A return of bendy bananas? The abandonment of SI and a reimposition of Imperial units? Repeal of the Human Rights Act and a resumption of cruel and unusual punishments, imprisonment without trial, and the end of free speech and freedom of association?


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GMR
post Feb 22 2016, 05:21 PM
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I will vote out, but I think the country will vote in. However, it won't be the end of the matter. Say 48% are out, this alone will split the country and every time there is a problem those who voted out will point the finger at Cameron and the "yes" voters. Whatever way you look at it, it is a nail in the coffin of Europe. Like the Scottish referendum (which strengthened SNP), this referendum will strengthen UKIP.
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GMR
post Feb 22 2016, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Feb 21 2016, 05:42 PM) *
In. One look the collection of swivel eyed and leftie loons leading the Out campaign (some of whom would like to see us more closely aligned with Russia if we leave the EU) should tell you everything you need to know.





This is a stupid comment. There are likes and dislikes on both sides, and beside, are you saying your will allow "names" to persuade you which way to vote?

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On the edge
post Feb 22 2016, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Feb 22 2016, 04:09 PM) *
Yes, because any company would implicitly have the backing of their government to screw us over at every possible opportunity.


Rather like the French Government does right now you mean? Ever heard of EdF?


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On the edge
post Feb 22 2016, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 22 2016, 05:12 PM) *
Maybe some of those voting out can say a bit more about what they're expecting to improve. A return of bendy bananas? The abandonment of SI and a reimposition of Imperial units? Repeal of the Human Rights Act and a resumption of cruel and unusual punishments, imprisonment without trial, and the end of free speech and freedom of association?


That's an interesting one. Under existing English common law at least, if we came out, the existing directives we've signed up to are, by the legislation we enacted when we first joined enshrined in our own law, so we'd need some legislation to repeal and change all that we didn't like. A long and onerous task.

For me, the only immediate improvement would be the cost and bureaucratic effort reduction. It's the longer term win that gets my vote; winning new markets and restoring soup to nuts ownership of UK business.

We also exit the agricultural policy, so medium term ought to see less food imports and our own agriculture making a big come back.

It's possible, and will doubtless be painful, but get it right and our national respect is back, this time not based on an Empire.


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Simon Kirby
post Feb 22 2016, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Feb 22 2016, 05:57 PM) *
That's an interesting one. Under existing English common law at least, if we came out, the existing directives we've signed up to are, by the legislation we enacted when we first joined enshrined in our own law, so we'd need some legislation to repeal and change all that we didn't like. A long and onerous task.

Not sure about that. Take for example the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR), a piece of legislation with which I have some familiarity that incorporates into English law the European Union Directive 93/13/EEC. UTCCR is English Law right enough, but it is not primary legislation, so not an act of parliament, but rather it is secondary legislation and the Statutory Instrument that incorporates 93/13/EEC is made under a power of the 1972 European Communities Act, and that's going to be true for quite a bit of legislation. So if we leave the EU I'm assuming that there will need to be some repeal of the 1972 Act, and while tht might not necessarily mean the power to mke secondary legislation gets repealed, it's not immediately obvious that there won't be some difficulty. I'm not saying that the difficulty should prevent us from withdrawing from the Union, but it's a consideration given that the majority of the outers will jump at the chance of purging English Law of all taints of foreigness (like habeas corpus for example - doesn't even have an English name - how foreign is that!).


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On the edge
post Feb 22 2016, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 22 2016, 07:25 PM) *
Not sure about that. Take for example the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR), a piece of legislation with which I have some familiarity that incorporates into English law the European Union Directive 93/13/EEC. UTCCR is English Law right enough, but it is not primary legislation, so not an act of parliament, but rather it is secondary legislation and the Statutory Instrument that incorporates 93/13/EEC is made under a power of the 1972 European Communities Act, and that's going to be true for quite a bit of legislation. So if we leave the EU I'm assuming that there will need to be some repeal of the 1972 Act, and while tht might not necessarily mean the power to mke secondary legislation gets repealed, it's not immediately obvious that there won't be some difficulty. I'm not saying that the difficulty should prevent us from withdrawing from the Union, but it's a consideration given that the majority of the outers will jump at the chance of purging English Law of all taints of foreigness (like habeas corpus for example - doesn't even have an English name - how foreign is that!).



Yes, the 1972 Act will need to be repealed or amended. The issue is the continued application of the secondary legislation that applies today. There has been a huge amount since 1972 and its this that certain Ministers are saying are 'unstoppable laws that daily flow across my desk'. I've seen good evidence of that in the energy and trade departments. If they stopped being legal on a day we exit, there could be serious consequences. I'd argue it would take too long to do an order by order review, so that leaves adding clauses into the exit legislation, or taking the other route open; common law, which would hold that as they are legal on their own right, they'd continue to be so, until a formal change was made. In other words, the legality of these isn't dependent on EU membership. It is a very real issue and certainly as you say, most of the 'outers' won't even consider this,


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Feb 22 2016, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 22 2016, 07:25 PM) *
Not sure about that. Take for example the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR), a piece of legislation with which I have some familiarity that incorporates into English law the European Union Directive 93/13/EEC. UTCCR is English Law right enough, but it is not primary legislation, so not an act of parliament, but rather it is secondary legislation and the Statutory Instrument that incorporates 93/13/EEC is made under a power of the 1972 European Communities Act, and that's going to be true for quite a bit of legislation. So if we leave the EU I'm assuming that there will need to be some repeal of the 1972 Act, and while tht might not necessarily mean the power to mke secondary legislation gets repealed, it's not immediately obvious that there won't be some difficulty. I'm not saying that the difficulty should prevent us from withdrawing from the Union, but it's a consideration given that the majority of the outers will jump at the chance of purging English Law of all taints of foreigness (like habeas corpus for example - doesn't even have an English name - how foreign is that!).


I can't see things like this affecting the way people vote.
People are normally in or out.
One things for certain. This vote is more important than the next general election. We have tories for a long time
I hope for a very high turnout

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On the edge
post Feb 23 2016, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 22 2016, 10:23 PM) *
I can't see things like this affecting the way people vote.
People are normally in or out.
One things for certain. This vote is more important than the next general election. We have tories for a long time
I hope for a very high turnout


That's exactly the point!

Nonetheless, it isn't particularly wise to vote either way without appreciating the consequences. Put it this way, right now, I'm inclined to vote out, but in my view, that will mean for a fair few years immediately after, we will find things quite hard. Rather like winning WW2; yes a massive cause celebration but in reality, everyday life became harder for a few years, much safer but harder. Exactly the same after the American independence. I'd be up for it let's hope everyone else is.


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Simon Kirby
post Feb 23 2016, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Feb 22 2016, 10:23 PM) *
I can't see things like this affecting the way people vote.

If you're not taking practical, rational things like this into account can you say what is motivating your strong desire to leave the EU - and if you're goung to cite soverignty as many do will you please be specific about which specific legislation you find so intolerable and provide some kind of balaced evidence that doesn't reference a story in the Daily Wail about illegal immigrants not being deported because of their cat?


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je suis Charlie
post Feb 23 2016, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 23 2016, 08:19 AM) *
If you're not taking practical, rational things like this into account can you say what is motivating your strong desire to leave the EU - and if you're goung to cite soverignty as many do will you please be specific about which specific legislation you find so intolerable and provide some kind of balaced evidence that doesn't reference a story in the Daily Wail about illegal immigrants not being deported because of their cat?

Naw, this is my current favourite take of the day!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/J...rews-it-up.html
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On the edge
post Feb 23 2016, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 23 2016, 08:45 AM) *
Naw, this is my current favourite take of the day!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/J...rews-it-up.html


OMG! I'd forgotten the Telegraph; thought it had died ages ago. As someone once said, a paper for Mail readers who've started to dribble! laugh.gif


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je suis Charlie
post Feb 23 2016, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Feb 23 2016, 09:06 AM) *
OMG! I'd forgotten the Telegraph; thought it had died ages ago. As someone once said, a paper for Mail readers who've started to dribble! laugh.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif
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James_Trinder
post Feb 23 2016, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Feb 22 2016, 05:48 PM) *
Rather like the French Government does right now you mean? Ever heard of EdF?


Yes, exactly like that but even more so.
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On the edge
post Feb 23 2016, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (James_Trinder @ Feb 23 2016, 12:57 PM) *
Yes, exactly like that but even more so.

That's one of the key reasons I want to come out. EdF the French nationalised industry were the highest bidder for London Electricity, no other public company could go there of course, not having access to the low interest rates nation states can secure. Since then, they've also essentially dictated our energy policy with their stranglehold on nuclear generation! What a superb example of a common market.

Yet the EC in spite of lots of bluff and bluster has done absolutely nothing. There are other examples. Sure, EdF and the like could continue to do this if we exit BUT at least we won't be paying for the privilege and could impose our own sanctions.


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Andy Capp
post Feb 23 2016, 06:36 PM
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I fear being in or out wouldn't make the difference. Poor government planning results in being vulnerable to exploitation, e.g. West Berks Council and town centre apartments.
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