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Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 6 2009, 01:26 PM

Having seen the troops looking so well drilled and professional on Friday just shows that young people given direction and discipline can be a credit to society.

I would like to see National Service brought back in on a Voluntary and none Voluntary basis. If youths choose to Volunteer then all credit to them but if a youth misbehaves to a certain degree (the level of this would have to be decided upon) I would like to see them enlisted in the Army. It would serve us and them better than any Prison Cell or Youth Detention facility would and would free up our jails for the older lags who are serial repeat offenders.

Thoughts?

Posted by: GMR Jul 6 2009, 03:05 PM

I agree totally. They then might learn how to behave and how to treat one-another. They say there isn't enough prisons and at the same time say we haven't got enough people volunteering to go in the army; but them together. However, people should have a choice. Those that show respect to others shouldn't have to be forced into going into the army, but those that prefer to cause trouble, take drugs, get drunk or just be a burden on society should be forced to go into the army. Only allow them out when they have learnt a lesson.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 6 2009, 03:36 PM

Yes, but would you want some deadbeat, unreliable, piece of human dross guarding your back if you were in combat against the Taliban? No, thanks, a job for professionals, I feel. Ditto the RAF and the navy. The armed forces have got better things to do than nursemaid rubbish

Posted by: GMR Jul 6 2009, 03:57 PM

But isn't the point you knock them into shape?

In the First and Second world war our jails were full with criminals of all sorts. Churchill said he would pardon them all (part from the very worst criminals) if they joined up. They were trained into very good soldiers. Some say if it wasn't for recruiting those prisoners Britain might have been in a lot more trouble. Other countries did the same. However, if they are as rubbish as you say then maybe we should just shoot 'em?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 6 2009, 04:00 PM

I think the idea is to knock these lads into shape before it is too late. If they don't adjust their attitude then they can go to Colchester. A military prison is not quite like a Category C or Youth offenders institute....

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 6 2009, 04:16 PM

But, and I can hear the cries now, 'what about their human rights?' - times have changed since the 1940s and what was acceptable discipline then, like sending a 9 year old girl to a remand home for stealing a book of saving stamps valued at £1, wouldn't be allowed now.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 6 2009, 04:22 PM

The times have changed. I agree. For the worse. Who is talking about sending a 9 year old to a remand home anyway? I am talking about sending a 17 or 18 year old ganga smoking pothead who burgles properties for a living and does not get any discipline from the justice system or parents to do National Service. And as for the 'Human Rights' Act. That has to be the worst piece of legislation EVER passed into law.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 6 2009, 04:27 PM

What, use them for target practice?

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 6 2009, 04:29 PM

What, use them for target practice, you mean?

Posted by: GMR Jul 6 2009, 06:22 PM

That would be even better

Posted by: Bill1 Jul 6 2009, 07:13 PM

Firstly I would add it's not just certain lads who need a shake up but some girls too. (See AmieB's thread of earlier today).

Secondly the "ganja smoking potheads" aren't the main problem re. burglaries, it's those addicted to the really strong stuff like heroin and crack.

Posted by: GMR Jul 6 2009, 07:18 PM

Yes - we mustn't forget the female variety of trouble makers. If we do ever get around to using the army for our rubbish then it must accommodate both sexes.

I only mention the "potheads" in-respect of them causing trouble in town and other areas. If they would disappear into the abyss then I don't think they would be a problem.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 6 2009, 07:31 PM

Could anyone really expect HM Armed Forces to do anything with people like that? Have pity, please - they're very thinly spread as it is. Tempted to remind people of what I posted on another matter i.e., in the old Communist bloc, they often got things wrong but imagine if these characters were stopped in the street by jowly looking men in trilbys, bundled into the back of ZIL cars and taken away, being accused of 'being enemies of the state', never to be seen again. Any complaints?

Posted by: GMR Jul 6 2009, 07:43 PM

Didn't you suggest target practice? I am all for that... at least it is better than hurting the rag dummies they usually use (at least they've got more soul)

Posted by: Darren Jul 6 2009, 08:37 PM

Many of them used their criminal skill to great effect as agents of SOE. Burglars, forgers and safe crackers were in demand for occupied Europe.

Posted by: GMR Jul 6 2009, 08:51 PM

Yes they did.... some of the spies were recruited from the criminal elements to help us in our of need.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 7 2009, 08:15 AM

I believe that all young people of both sexes should do National Service from the age of perhaps 16.
I think all low level criminals should also be subjected to the benefits of a disciplined environment where they can be encouraged to do better.
If anyone saw the Daily Mail today you would have seen how the Yehmen deal with the likes of criminals who rape young children.
Rather extreme I confess but wouldn't the reintroduction of the death penalty protect so many young and innocent lives from serial predators.
Also if you carry a knife you get 5 years if caught. I think that would solve that problem.
Human rights legislation is a charter has become a stick to beat ouselves up with. It needs changing.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 7 2009, 09:25 AM

The American Army is largely made up of rank & file recruited in this way. You only need to spend 10 mins on liveleak to see what kind of Army this gets you.

Posted by: GMR Jul 7 2009, 09:36 AM

I've been saying this for years - about the human rights charter. It is there to protect the bad elements of our society. You never hear of it protecting innocent citizens. Criminals who are harassed by the police or arrested start shouting about their human rights. It is the innocent that needs protecting.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 7 2009, 09:43 AM

Qute right, I agree entirely

Posted by: Andy1 Jul 7 2009, 03:15 PM

National Service will not make a difference. I didn't make any difference back then and it won't now and please don't come back with it made a Man out of my Dad or Grandad, yes ofcourse it did for some because they wanted to do it

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 7 2009, 03:24 PM

Ok then Andy1 - Do you have a better idea or should we just all give up and join the mass rabble on the streets. Do you realise that the entire direct taxation (PAYE) now only pays for the benefits system? In order for the NHS to be funded it has to come out of indirect taxation (like duty on petrol). So basically ALL my direct tax go's to fund the benefits system. I am happy to accomodate this where their is a genuine need but so many 'play' the system now that the system has entirely failed and a lot of the youth of today (like teenage girls making 'career' decisions to have as many babies as possible with as many fathers as possible) know this.

Posted by: GMR Jul 7 2009, 03:44 PM

I have a better idea; wall, rifle, blindfold (optional), executor.

I bet somebody is going to bleat about the cost of the shells for the rifles and their human right etc.

Posted by: JeffG Jul 7 2009, 03:54 PM

In China, don't they charge the criminal's family for the bullet?

Posted by: Iommi Jul 7 2009, 05:14 PM

As a society we have a number of issues, but my feelings are that conscription won't really work. It is a different world now, where I feel that Information Technology is assisting in the erosion of morality, be it perceived or real.

Posted by: GMR Jul 7 2009, 06:52 PM

so..... we can learn a lot from the Chinese then!

Posted by: Bill1 Jul 8 2009, 04:53 PM

Not from I've been seeing on the news of late

Posted by: GMR Jul 8 2009, 06:32 PM

Only if they were winning you mean we could learn something?

Posted by: Newbury Expat Jul 8 2009, 07:27 PM

To add to the debate, maybe it's useful to see which other countries utilise conscription and whether you feel they benefit from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#Countries_with_and_without_mandatory_military_service

As for the UK, my gut feel is that it could help. A lot of social problems stem from a lack of structure (at home due to 'don't care' parents, at school because they don't go, etc). Some form of national service would provide this and while it won't help those with definite social/behavioural problems, it would surely help some. Certainly more than giving them handouts - all that teaches is how to do the bare minimum.

Motivated young people don't need it but could still benefit from it.

Posted by: GMR Jul 8 2009, 08:36 PM

It might mean the young seeing the world from a different perspective; which wouldn't really hurt.

Posted by: Andy1 Jul 9 2009, 09:22 AM

Who funds the Armed Services. You'd be paying for 'them' either way whether on the streets or in a uniform. If you can prove that National Service made a difference then great bring it back but I'd suggest that those who didn't want to do it would have found a way. If Teenage Girls as you put it are making 'career' decisions to have as many babies as possible, then surely forcing NS on them would make them more likely to get pregnant to avoid it. The problem you describe goes back generations, it didn't happen over night nor since Labour took over.

The problem with a lot of the youth of today is that they are just lablled as you have done above, even if they trying better themselves. If they want to go the Uni then they'll be paying for it for years after. If they want an apprentership, they'll be lucky to find them. If they are not academic then a low paid job is all they'll have to look forward to. I don't have the solutions but improving the future for generations to come so they're are less likely to follow the road you suggest above

Posted by: GMR Jul 9 2009, 09:32 AM

I agree with a lot of what you say; that a lot of the youth are fairly put on. However, we are not talking about those ones, but those that wish to cause trouble. The national service might not be an ideal solution, but it is better than nothing. Yes, girls might get pregnant so that they don’t have to do national service; but what is the alternative? Allow them on their merry way? Maybe you have a better solution? Dingo nothing is not an option. Also saying that this problem has been going on for years is not a good excuse either. Wars have been going on for years; should we then stop protesting/ finding solutions to end wars and let them get on with it?


As for funds; one way or another tax money is going to be needed to sort this problem out. National service is a good away as any.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 9 2009, 09:41 AM

Yep, I agree with that but first the Goverment has to come to the conclusion that there is a problem and they won't do that as it proves that the policies they have supported for the last 10 years haven't worked.
Have you ever heard any member of this Governent say "sorry, I got it wrong"?

Posted by: GMR Jul 9 2009, 10:28 AM

No, I haven't and I agree.

The Asbos they also issue is also a con. Many thugs wear them has a mark or pride (an achievement). There is only one language they will understand; strong discipline.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 9 2009, 10:31 AM

Amen to that!!!!

Posted by: Road User Jul 10 2009, 07:08 AM

The idea of National Service is a good one for several reasons. One you could tell all the benefit louts no more benefits unless you do national service. This works for men and women as the military services need all sorts with recruitment down.

I am not saying send them to the front line but there is plenty of non combat jobs that need doing here on the military bases. Look at the accommodation they provide for the serving soldiers and their families. It’s appalling in some areas! This will teach them a trade, be it plumbing, decorating or mechanics. Then when they leave the national service they will have a real skill they can use to stay off benefits.

When it comes to yobs there are two levels really, the hard core criminals and the hangers on who just follow them around like sheep because no one has ever pointed them in a different direction. I know it wouldn’t work for all of them but if you managed to get through to a few of these hangers on then it would be worth it. It might also catch on that it was worth while option.

Last night I watched the documentary about the real James Bond villain Goldfinger and how MI5 was started with the help of the criminal element. Many of the petty criminals who burgle and hack into computers could be recruited into the intelligence services. They already have many of the skills they need and they might find working for the military a more attractive option to an over crowded jail. It would save the government millions and provide valuable talent.

But I am sure it would be in court in a heart beat because it's their human rights to be lazy and on benefits.......

Posted by: GMR Jul 12 2009, 10:46 AM

A good point; their "Human Rights" would put an end to any attempt by the government in using national service as a means of discipline.