Garvie and Two Saints Options

[MontyPython]

I actually concur with your concerns about the IPCC, and yes I am a former officer myself. One thing is for certain Police and Crime Commissioners are NOT going to be able to make the reforms to the police service that society needs, but that is a different issue.

So they have are a complete waste of money - as predicted by many. Just more jobs for the boys really (politicians of all parties)

[Roost]

There were 2,183 complaints against Thames Valley Police recorded by the IPCC in 2011. There were a total of 34,000 complaints made against all 43 police forces. I would suggest that this figure would indicate that Thames Valley Police have at least their fair share of misconduct. So the assumption is not ridiculous as the evidence is there.

The making of a complaint does not make it either a true or b substantiated.

That particular figure is evidence only of the number of complaints against Thames Valley Police recorded by the IPCC. And only in one year. It does not specify how many were substantiated or what categories (I.e corruption, excessive force, incivility etc) and is not sufficient data to provide any evidence in support of, well, anything.

[On the edge]

The making of a complaint does not make it either a true or b substantiated.

That particular figure is evidence only of the number of complaints against Thames Valley Police recorded by the IPCC. And only in one year. It does not specify how many were substantiated or what categories (I.e corruption, excessive force, incivility etc) and is not sufficient data to provide any evidence in support of, well, anything.

The carpet is getting rather lumpy with so much swept under it!

So, we should only count substantive complaints. We investigate our own, so job done, all OK!

Trebles all round.

[newres]

The making of a complaint does not make it either a true or b substantiated.

That particular figure is evidence only of the number of complaints against Thames Valley Police recorded by the IPCC.

You are right. The complaints referred to the IPCC are only a small proportion of the total complaints received. The problem is much worse.

[NWNREADER]

Is it?
IPCC Data

and

Once an interested person has read through that information they will have a fuller picture of the actual situation.

I doubt many of our homeless are informed on such data, so wonder what their basis would be for not trusting the local police to sort out if they were dying due to the varied circumstances they suffer, or a sinister hand is ensuring the streets are rid of their miserable existence such as in this story

Not easy to find official stats, but as a comparison have a look at this page and this

[On the edge]

Is it?
IPCC Data

and

Once an interested person has read through that information they will have a fuller picture of the actual situation.

I doubt many of our homeless are informed on such data, so wonder what their basis would be for not trusting the local police to sort out if they were dying due to the varied circumstances they suffer, or a sinister hand is ensuring the streets are rid of their miserable existence such as in this story

Not easy to find official stats, but as a comparison have a look at this page and this

You are quite right, this is evidence that we now live in a dreadful society. I can't think of one institution that inspires any trust at all today. That's not down to processes of course but people. Our pseudo liberal approach to law and order is now coming home to roost.

The link you provide about the three youths who killed a homeless person for fun as an example of why homeless people should trust the police is particularly ironic. Indeed, having read the case reports, if these offenders had been dealt with properly by the very the police and justice systems you claim would have protected him, this probably wouldn't have happened.

[NWNREADER]

The link re the murder (not the only such case, as there is a similar trial in progress in Southampton) was not intended to promote trust of the police, but to remind of the risks street-dwellers/homeless come under from feral members of society. We have had such a case in Newbury, back in the 80's.
However, while I haven't seen the reports you mention, it is hard to instantly see how the police could have prevented the foul acts.

[motormad]

The making of a complaint does not make it either a true or b substantiated.

How true that is..
Sometimes there are genuine cause for complaint, sometimes people complain for no reason or for an unfair reason.

It can go both ways and needs an independent body who can see things both ways to make the decisions in EVERY case.

[On the edge]

The link re the murder (not the only such case, as there is a similar trial in progress in Southampton) was not intended to promote trust of the police, but to remind of the risks street-dwellers/homeless come under from feral members of society. We have had such a case in Newbury, back in the 80's.
However, while I haven't seen the reports you mention, it is hard to instantly see how the police could have prevented the foul acts.

You've answered your own question. Why were feral youths roaming the streets? More, how did they become feral in the first place? They didn't suddenly start committing offences! So why had the welfare and criminal justice system fail to pick them up well before. You are quite right in suggesting this isn't an isolated case, it's happened time and time again. So you honestly expect me to trust the Police?

[NWNREADER]

You've answered your own question. Why were feral youths roaming the streets? More, how did they become feral in the first place? They didn't suddenly start committing offences! So why had the welfare and criminal justice system fail to pick them up well before. You are quite right in suggesting this isn't an isolated case, it's happened time and time again. So you honestly expect me to trust the Police?

I expect little,but I don't see your distrust as being justified. Not my issue, apart from when you may sway someone else with less than full information (which is how I feel about most things in life).
As regards youth crime, you ask questions of the welfare and CJ systems, but not of the parents. Is the State the proper organisation to bring up children?
Oh, and I asked no question.

[On the edge]

I expect little,but I don't see your distrust as being justified. Not my issue, apart from when you may sway someone else with less than full information (which is how I feel about most things in life).
As regards youth crime, you ask questions of the welfare and CJ systems, but not of the parents. Is the State the proper organisation to bring up children?
Oh, and I asked no question.

I haven't gone into the depths of the failure, but yes parents are conributory. Again, in the case you highlighted clearly Mum was an accessory - and is suffering an appropriate penalty. Again, that wasn't an overnight fail; so what were the 'authorities' actually doing all the time the kids were growing up? For instance when they had their collars felt the first time?

Yes, mine is a personal view, founded on rather more than wonky stats. I also know I'm not alone and there are growing numbers now able to see the Police for what they've become. Figures are important but when they bear no relationship to visible reality, we have a problem. If your speedo starts recording 30mph when you are racing down a motorway what do you do? Believe the speedo or get it fixed?

I certainly agree that the state may not be the best choice to bring up children but then there are circumstances where a child's best interests aren't served staying with their parents.

[motormad]

I'd speed up till my speedo is reading 70. hehehehe

[On the edge]

I'd speed up till my speedo is reading 70. hehehehe