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> Bringing back Clause 4, Whats in it for us?
On the edge
post Aug 9 2015, 06:28 PM
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You don't have to go back too far and Labour were the opposition party round here. Who says they can't do it again?

There are hints (shock / horror) that a good few would like to reinstate a revised Clause 4! Would that actually help? Well, on this very forum there have been calls to take the railways back into public ownership; simply because the bogus markets don't seem capable of delivering the service we want at costs we can afford. Then take utilities, we might actually be better off with the distribution networks at least being in public hands. Rural broadband might then be more than a dream.

It all depends on the model. In my view, the mistake last time was to equate public ownership with centralisation. This time there are suggestions it should be localised. So far so good. The only hesitation I'd have is our very own local 'public management' experience. Step,forward NTC! However, if words like cooperative and agency were added to the mix - who knows, a brighter future?

Anyway, right or wrong, at least Labour are trying to come up with a real and different vision; not just a different shade of blue and a mine is bigger than yours approach to policy!


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motormad
post Aug 9 2015, 06:39 PM
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What's clause 4?


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Exhausted
post Aug 9 2015, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 9 2015, 07:39 PM) *
What's clause 4?





Something the labour party thought might be good for their image before they became new labour. All about common ownership.

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blackdog
post Aug 9 2015, 10:02 PM
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It seems to me that the left wing of the Labour party are looking at the SNP with envy - they are both socialist and popular. Can Labour survive in Scotland without fighting to regain socialist vote that has migrated to the SNP?

Without Scotland can Labour hope to win a UK election?

The big question, of course, is whether a socialist party will ever again be electable in England.

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On the edge
post Aug 10 2015, 08:47 AM
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Good point! Your final question is exactly that raised in 1959. It all looks good for the Conservatives today, but just like back then I suspect the foundations are faulty. The similarity is also there for the LibDems, or Tory Lite, who seem set fair to follow the self same course. The SNP is really a protest; and sure, it's taken on the socialist mantle. Nonetheless, as we've seen so many times in the past, once the realities of power hit home and they get to see what economic devolution really looks like that majority will melt away.

Labour's success or otherwise will depend on the mood and attitude of the people. Labour traditionally only seem to win elections when it's 'we' rather than 'me'. Labour haven't been elected since Mrs T re-set the mood, so they've been badge engineering at best.

However, there is this little sign that a real vision is emerging; who knows, we might just be a real choice next time.


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motormad
post Aug 10 2015, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Aug 9 2015, 08:53 PM) *
Something the labour party thought might be good for their image before they became new labour. All about common ownership.




Yeah, cos that's a helpful answer......... rolleyes.gif

Such a political answer. This is why I don't vote.


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On the edge
post Aug 10 2015, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 10 2015, 11:15 AM) *
Yeah, cos that's a helpful answer......... rolleyes.gif

Such a political answer. This is why I don't vote.


If you live in certain areas of say Thatcham, it's not worth voting anyway! It seems counting votes properly becomes too hard if there is more than one election going on at the same time.


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Andy Capp
post Aug 10 2015, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 10 2015, 11:15 AM) *
Yeah, cos that's a helpful answer......... rolleyes.gif

Such a political answer. This is why I don't vote.

It is you right not to vote, but if you don't then that is one vote less likely that anything will change.

You know how to use the Internet, a search for 'Clause 4'. Broadly speaking it is in the Labour Party's constitution and it was the clause that gave birth to public ownership: nationalisation. It was revised in the mid 90s and no-longer supported the imperative to maintain public ownership.
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On the edge
post Aug 10 2015, 03:13 PM
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That's not saying 'public ownership' us perfect. In some senses, Network Rail (or whatever they call themselves these days) is de facto in public ownership. As are some banks. Trouble is, we've adopted the dumb private sector 'celebrate failure' management model.

For example, fining Network Rail for its abysmal management failure will only hit the operational budgets. I guess the executive won't be repaying bonuses and will be very well rewarded next year too! Real 'public ownership' should have those responsible take an early bath sans any contribution in lieu.


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motormad
post Aug 10 2015, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 10 2015, 01:36 PM) *
It is you right not to vote, but if you don't then that is one vote less likely that anything will change.

You know how to use the Internet, a search for 'Clause 4'. Broadly speaking it is in the Labour Party's constitution and it was the clause that gave birth to public ownership: nationalisation. It was revised in the mid 90s and no-longer supported the imperative to maintain public ownership.


Generally anything you search for relating to politics ends you in a long winded trial where everyone blames everything else instead of actually getting any information.

And thank you for explaining. laugh.gif


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CrackerJack
post Aug 10 2015, 06:57 PM
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Isn't Clause 4 where all Labour Party members, Union Card holders and aspiring political activists at Uni start calling each other "Comrade" again and arrange meetings in smoke filled rooms where they plot how best to return Britain to the Dark Ages?

...ah yes... 70's militant Britain.... that time which very few people look back on fondly and think "The Good Old Days".. wouldn't it be nice to go there again..... rolleyes.gif

Times have changed and some things will be easier to resurrect than others. They'd have to dig out the old printing plates for the Che Guevara poster for instance, but that's easily done. Working out where to go for a thoroughly miserable holiday in a proper socialist enclave with rationed grey food in grey concrete hotels is more difficult since The Wall came down though.

If you hang around long enough Britain might have a few of those under a Labour Government
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Andy Capp
post Aug 10 2015, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 07:57 PM) *
Working out where to go for a thoroughly miserable holiday in a proper socialist enclave with rationed grey food in grey concrete hotels is more difficult since The Wall came down though. If you hang around long enough Britain might have a few of those under a Labour Government

I'm sure you could find a number of people that would say that is their life under a Tory Britain too.
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CrackerJack
post Aug 10 2015, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 07:57 PM) *
Isn't Clause 4 where all Labour Party members, Union Card holders and aspiring political activists at Uni start calling each other "Comrade" again and arrange meetings in smoke filled rooms where they plot how best to return Britain to the Dark Ages?

Of course in an acknowledgement of the more health conscious 2015 Britain those smoke filled rooms would instead be 'vape' filled rooms....


QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 9 2015, 11:02 PM) *
It seems to me that the left wing of the Labour party are looking at the SNP with envy - they are both socialist and popular.

Yes but they are a heavily subsidised socialist experiment which is maintained in a marriage of inconvenience by their 'significant other' south of the border.... If Salmond and his YES campaign had come out on top I dare say that his vision of a Socialist Scotland would become rapidly less popular once the financial fluff came into sharper focus, especially following the downturn in oil prices on which much of their socialist dream was founded and funded. Whilst the nasty Tory Toffs in England are still in charge it's going to be easy for Sturgeon to keep Scottish Saltires flying from every flagpole.

Labour won't stand a chance up there again until devolution happens (which is inevitable at some stage) and once SNP have had a chance to **** it up on their own with nobody else to blame.
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Andy Capp
post Aug 10 2015, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 09:12 PM) *
Yes but they are a heavily subsidised socialist experiment which is maintained in a marriage of inconvenience by their 'significant other' south of the border....

Hitherto, I have been lead to believe that Scotland is a net contributer.
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CrackerJack
post Aug 10 2015, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 10 2015, 09:17 PM) *
Hitherto, I have been lead to believe that Scotland is a net contributer.

...pfft... According to the Department of Fisheries (Salmond & Sturgeon Division) School of Economics. Cast them adrift and see how much life north of the border will have to change.
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Andy Capp
post Aug 10 2015, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 09:28 PM) *
...pfft... According to the Department of Fisheries (Salmond & Sturgeon Division) School of Economics. Cast them adrift and see how much life north of the border will have to change.

The point is, Scotland (assuming oil revenue) has been a net contributer.
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je suis Charlie
post Aug 10 2015, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 10 2015, 09:17 PM) *
Hitherto, I have been lead to believe that Scotland is a net contributer.

Has been, has been. Most of the wealth has come from the oilfields and with Brent Crude at around $50.00 a barrel you can say goodbye to that.
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GMR
post Aug 11 2015, 04:36 PM
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A political party should be looking towards the future, not backwards and Clause 4 represents a time that has long gone. If Corbyn achieves anything then it will be on the same lines as Foot in the 80s (“the longest suicide note in history”). He also will make sure that the Tories are in power for generations.



Clause four is an anachronism; Blair was right to remove it from Labour’s constitution and build for the future.



If Corbyn becomes Labour leader then what next? Diana Abbott as shadow Chancellor and Dennis Skinner as Shadow Foreign Minister? It will also be interesting – if he does win – how many of the current labour shadow cabinet become part of his shadow cabinet. If they do it will destroy any credibility for future challengers to the leadership.

We also mustn’t forget that when we have the next election the Tory’s will have a new leader, while Labour could have Corbyn.

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CrackerJack
post Aug 11 2015, 05:49 PM
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Somewhere deep in the new Labour Party Headquarters there is someone with their finger hovering over the 'Self Destruct' button. Idealist views are fine and dandy whilst sitting on the sideline or whilst holding a placard on some march somewhere, but as a party leader and potentially chief opposition spokesman it's death knell stuff.

His cunning plan to forcibly nationalise the energy companies should be interesting. Especially the one 85% owned by the French state. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious (or is it serious as they will never get elected with him at the helm and Abbott and other loony lefties chanting their support)
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Andy Capp
post Aug 11 2015, 06:26 PM
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I remember when New Labour last got into power, people had written off the Tories much the same way. All New Old Labour have to do is have a few babysitters to look after things until the public get fed-up with the current Raving Monster Tory Party, then they will be in the running again.
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