The Vision Options

[On the edge]

Err, yes.

So then, what does WBC know that they don't? Think I'd trust Debenhams or Tesco commercial savvy over WBC's!

[blackdog]

What developmer is going to spend £100s millions building something which they don' own? Would you buy a leasehold house?

WBC are using the value of the land as their investment in these projects.

If a company can't make a good return on the investment over 100 years they shouldn't be in business. Within that time the bricks and mortar will need to be replaced - and WBC will have precious little say over what is built - whereas if they were the freeholder they could have a lot of say. They would, of course, be able to offer a lease extension as a further incentive ...

As for buying leasehold property - hundreds of leasehold flats have been built in Newbury in recent years - they all seem to have sold.

[Andy Capp]

My point is: what do we do when we have sold all the land, what then? Parkway seemingly demonstrates the power private landlords have over councils (cinema, parking charges, cracks), is that what we want and need more of?

I guess it depends on whether you want stuff now funded largely by private cash or whether you want stuff done only when the council can afford it paid for by taxation.

Doesn't really address my point: 'privatisation of the administration and running of Newbury Town'. As has been demonstrated already, WBC are no match to wealthy developers. The steady removal of democracy and public land.

[On the edge]

Doesn't really address my point: 'privatisation of the administration and running of Newbury Town'. As has been demonstrated already, WBC are no match to wealthy developers. The steady removal of democracy and public land.

Key points, both lack credible answers so far. The ruling party seem to have accepted this, by their silence I take it the LibDems have as well. Given the nature of this, you are right; doesn't matter a jot who we vote for in next 15 years. Nice one Nick!

[Andy Capp]

It might help if the business case for all this was made public. It all just seems to be behind closed doors. That's fine, except we are quite literately giving away land to people who are more powerful than the elected authority who are selling it.

I'd just like someone to explain the rationalé behind it all.

We get things like this:

“We are going to have significant housing and population growth over the next decade, that can only be a good thing for Newbury town centre and the surrounding area.”

"The arts and leisure manager for West Berkshire Council, Chris Jones, said the refreshed vision would focus on encouraging young adults to stay in Newbury, following an ongoing loss of young people leaving the town to live, study and work, address empty office space and broaden the recreation and leisure facilities on offer to promote Newbury as a sporting venue."

How is population growth only a good thing? Chris Jones mentions a migration of young people. Surly this comes about due to lack of a affordable living space? How will this be addressed? Look at the prospectus of our local further education facility. Simply inadequate.

[dannyboy]

If a company can't make a good return on the investment over 100 years they shouldn't be in business. Within that time the bricks and mortar will need to be replaced - and WBC will have precious little say over what is built - whereas if they were the freeholder they could have a lot of say. They would, of course, be able to offer a lease extension as a further incentive ...

As for buying leasehold property - hundreds of leasehold flats have been built in Newbury in recent years - they all seem to have sold.

Why should a company wait 100 years? Buy it, build it, sell it. Move on.

WBC can't afford to be the leaseholder or freeholder. All they owned were a few car parks. Not much return there. Of course they could have borrowed a few hundred million & built themselves a few hundred houses & several hundred square feet of retail space.

[dannyboy]

So then, what does WBC know that they don't? Think I'd trust Debenhams or Tesco commercial savvy over WBC's!

WBC are not retail tenants, nor retail landlords, So I guess both no quite a bit that the other does not.

[dannyboy]

Doesn't really address my point: 'privatisation of the administration and running of Newbury Town'. As has been demonstrated already, WBC are no match to wealthy developers. The steady removal of democracy and public land.

I have no idea what your point is.

[Andy Capp]

I have no idea what your point is.

Newbury is being sold off to owners that call the shots, as seen by Parkway, Racecourse et al. And what do the council sell of once it has all gone. They are not making any more.

[Simon Kirby]

Newbury is being sold off to owners that call the shots, as seen by Parkway, Racecourse et al. And what do the council sell of once it has all gone. They are not making any more.

I see it differently.

There is plenty of open space for Newbury to expand into on all sides bar the east, especially into the space between the town and the bypass. I don't see growth in itself being a problem, the challenge is ensuring that we get a quality built environment with strategically planned transport, leisure, retail, and employment. A vision of the future is essential to deliver this and avoid inappropriate, disjoint, and piecemeal development without the supporting facilities, so I'm pleased to see the council looking more holistically at the town and not just thinking about the town centre. I like the idea of Newbury developing its sporting and leisure facilities and becoming a place to visit, though I'll be sceptical that WBC can deliver that until I see some concrete plans for the Country Park.

But I don't see WBC having a central role in any actual development. I feel that their involvement and our democratic control begins and ends with planning policy and the development framework. I don't quite understand how WBC has managed to acquire so much development land, and I think it should sell it for the best price it can get for it and let the private sector do the rest within the constraints of the planning system.

[MontyPython]

...... until I see some concrete plans for the Country Park.

....

Unfortunately that is the material that will probably be dominant in the area designated to be the country park

[Simon Kirby]

Unfortunately that is the material that will probably be dominant in the area designated to be the country park

The irony was accidental, but yes, that's a worry.

[dannyboy]

Newbury is being sold off to owners that call the shots, as seen by Parkway, Racecourse et al. And what do the council sell of once it has all gone. They are not making any more.

Once it is all sold off they'll just stick in a compulsory purchase order on the whole shebang.

Whatever you may think of SLI & PW, they still have to follow the rules. I'd guess that 95% of local people could not give a fig what the land PW sits on was was sold for - all they know is that instead of a hand car wash, three gravel car parks & a few office blocks they now have a nice new shiny shopping area.

[Andy Capp]

Once it is all sold off they'll just stick in a compulsory purchase order on the whole shebang.

Whatever you may think of SLI & PW, they still have to follow the rules. I'd guess that 95% of local people could not give a fig what the land PW sits on was was sold for - all they know is that instead of a hand car wash, three gravel car parks* & a few office blocks they now have a nice new shiny shopping area.

*The loss of free parking was a big loss and I believe harms the use of Vicki park.

But the point I make is that corporate private enterprise wield a big influence on how the town is managed and run to a point when elected councils have to back down. Whether it is subsiding a hand full of disinterested kids at a cinema, bolting on a big ugly building for John Lewis, paying for remedial work in the park, reduced affordable housing on the Racecourse, or lost parking revenue though behind closed door agreements, etc.

I also see nothing visionary or skilful in bunging an out-of-character half baked shopping centre in a run-down car park, or an eyesore to challenge the post-office tower in the 'other' spare car park.

Why is having a bigger busier town only a good thing (with all its traffic)? Why is selling public assets the only way to get things done these days and why is it necessary anyway? Why now?

However, I am prepared to be won over, I'd just like to see a justification for it to be done this way. We know that you are just an independent bystander offering contrary points of view for the sake of discussion, so your opinion, therefore, have little value.

[dannyboy]

*The loss of free parking was a big loss and I believe harms the use of Vicki park.

But the point I make is that corporate private enterprise wield a big influence on how the town is managed and run to a point when elected councils have to back down. Whether it is subsiding a hand full of disinterested kids at a cinema, bolting on a big ugly building for John Lewis, paying for remedial work in the park, reduced affordable housing on the Racecourse, or lost parking revenue though behind closed door agreements, etc.

I also see nothing visionary or skilful in bunging an out-of-character half baked shopping centre in a run-down car park, or an eyesore to challenge the post-office tower in the 'other' spare car park.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it is just as valid as anyone elses - but what matters is what the collective majority thinks.

The elected council decided Newbury needed a new shopping area & that was what SLI delivered. It could be argued that WBC wanted to get rid of free parking & have used SLI & PW as a useful tool for achieving this aim. Is the John Lewis building any worse than what was originally planned? What is better - three more chain restaurants / coffee shops or new to town department store? Are the kids at the cinema disinterested? are they the only cinema goers?

[MontyPython]

Once it is all sold off they'll just stick in a compulsory purchase order on the whole shebang.

Whatever you may think of SLI & PW, they still have to follow the rules. I'd guess that 95% of local people could not give a fig what the land PW sits on was was sold for - all they know is that instead of a hand car wash, three gravel car parks & a few office blocks they now have a nice new shiny shopping area.

You have repeatedly said that you don't care how WBC spends/wastes the Council taxpayers money. I don't believe the majority agree with you (I certainly don't), however they realise that whoever they elect they appear unable to rid themselves of those in Market Street etc. who continue to be wasteful of resources and lacking in commercial acumen to get a reasonable deal particularly with developers. As a result they give up banging their heads against a brick wall by complaining and don't bother to vote any more.

[dannyboy]

You have repeatedly said that you don't care how WBC spends/wastes the Council taxpayers money. I don't believe the majority agree with you (I certainly don't), however they realise that whoever they elect they appear unable to rid themselves of those in Market Street etc. who continue to be wasteful of resources and lacking in commercial acumen to get a reasonable deal particularly with developers. As a result they give up banging their heads against a brick wall by complaining and don't bother to vote any more.

I don't think they do care. Honestly. The bins are collected, the schools are open, and the verges are cut. That's as far as most people think.

If you asked local people if they would rather Park Way went back to how it was & WBC still owned the bits that they did, or it stayed as it is now and WBC lost their £1, I do believe most would opt for the latter.

Effectively, WBC swapped a few car parks & the people of Newbury got a new shopping area at zero cost.

[MontyPython]

I don't think they do care. Honestly. The bins are collected, the schools are open, and the verges are cut. That's as far as most people think.

If you asked local people if they would rather Park Way went back to how it was & WBC still owned the bits that they did, or it stayed as it is now and WBC lost their £1, I do believe most would opt for the latter.

Effectively, WBC swapped a few car parks & the people of Newbury got a new shopping area at zero cost.

But like User23 you are managing to mask the real question.

Would you prefer that WBC did the deals they did for Parkway and the Cinema, or to have done better commercial deals and pay £xx less on your council tax? Then you would get the real answer rather than the answers WBC get from their surveys which either don't inform the taxpayers what it will cost, or if they do - fail to deliver on the promise like the reduction in affordable housing in Parkway and secret deals on Car Parks and the revenue!

I think you will find that people do care, they just have little or no trust in both elected councillors and paid staff at WBC and NTC

[dannyboy]

But like User23 you are managing to mask the real question.

Would you prefer that WBC did the deals they did for Parkway and the Cinema, or to have done better commercial deals and pay £xx less on your council tax? Then you would get the real answer rather than the answers WBC get from their surveys which either don't inform the taxpayers what it will cost, or if they do - fail to deliver on the promise like the reduction in affordable housing in Parkway and secret deals on Car Parks and the revenue!

I think you will find that people do care, they just have little or no trust in both elected councillors and paid staff at WBC and NTC

you assume better deals were available.

[Andy Capp]

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it is just as valid as anyone elses - but what matters is what the collective majority thinks.

I offer my view simply as an observer. I plan no revolution any time soon.

The elected council decided Newbury needed a new shopping area & that was what SLI delivered.

I have no doubt about that, but I question the delivery process, and the timing. Footfall in the town has not returned to pre-Parkway levels. Granted they could be even worse without Parkway, but why is retail held in such high value when the high street is being abandoned for more leisurely methods? I'd say Newbury are 20/30 years too late.

It could be argued that WBC wanted to get rid of free parking & have used SLI & PW as a useful tool for achieving this aim.

Any truth to that, or just speculation. If there is any truth, and I doubt it, my contempt for our council would fall even lower.

Is the John Lewis building any worse than what was originally planned?

What an open space? Would have the original plans including it passed planning approval?

Anyway that wasn't the point, the point was the council were almost blackmailed into agreeing to the John Lewis building and removing the original affordable housing quota through fear of the developer walking away.

What is better - three more chain restaurants / coffee shops or new to town department store?

Like I said, it was the weak position the council found itself in when the developer threatened to hand back his spade if he didn't get his way.

Are the kids at the cinema disinterested? are they the only cinema goers?

My flippant comment was reference to the often empty theatres there are in the complex.