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> Burglar killed, Homeowner released without charge
TallDarkAndHands...
post Apr 6 2018, 07:45 PM
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Interesting and tragic case.

I fully sympathise with the home owner but has this not now set a precedent?

If you are being burgled violently do you have the right to protect you and your family by any means necessary?

Hopefully this makes burglars think twice. Though I doubt it as most have drug issues.
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x2lls
post Apr 6 2018, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Apr 6 2018, 08:45 PM) *
Interesting and tragic case.

I fully sympathise with the home owner but has this not now set a precedent?

If you are being burgled violently do you have the right to protect you and your family by any means necessary?

Hopefully this makes burglars think twice. Though I doubt it as most have drug issues.


The MSM always trawls out the rights you have to fight back in your own home according to law.
As far as I am concerned, if you cross a border, uninvited, you lose all rights and deserve what you get. Death included. kcuf the scum.


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Andy Capp
post Apr 6 2018, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Apr 6 2018, 08:45 PM) *
Interesting and tragic case.

I fully sympathise with the home owner but has this not now set a precedent?

If you are being burgled violently do you have the right to protect you and your family by any means necessary?

Hopefully this makes burglars think twice. Though I doubt it as most have drug issues.

Yep.
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newres
post Apr 6 2018, 09:19 PM
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Iíd say if you go into someoneís home armed, you canít complain if you get hurt. Rough justice, but hey ho.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Apr 6 2018, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Apr 6 2018, 10:19 PM) *
Iíd say if you go into someoneís home armed, you canít complain if you get hurt. Rough justice, but hey ho.

Do you think the lack of stop and search has emboldened the youth of London to more often than not be "tooled up" when they go out? I know racial profiling is a dreadful thing but what alternative is there? At the end of the day nearly all fatalities have been young and black. What do you suggest? I'm interested to hear the views of liberal minded people like yourself who would probably be anti stop and search. I know we have had cuts but London still has more police as a percentage of population than anywhere else in the UK.
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 6 2018, 10:27 PM
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Reasonable force is permitted, if they enter and you are in fear of your life or the lives of others you may use all reasonable force. What you may not do is attack someone trying to get out of the property nor can you harm someone who is fleeing the scene.
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newres
post Apr 7 2018, 04:49 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Apr 6 2018, 10:55 PM) *
Do you think the lack of stop and search has emboldened the youth of London to more often than not be "tooled up" when they go out? I know racial profiling is a dreadful thing but what alternative is there? At the end of the day nearly all fatalities have been young and black. What do you suggest? I'm interested to hear the views of liberal minded people like yourself who would probably be anti stop and search. I know we have had cuts but London still has more police as a percentage of population than anywhere else in the UK.

I don’t think stop and search was used fairly and hence why it was stopped. The average policeman is not very intelligent and used the power in a prejudicial way. However I don’t think that’s the “cause”. As an aside what happened to the police plan for graduate only entrance. The culture of the police really does need to change. They see themselves as deliverers of “justice” rather than upholding the law and seeking the truth.

Through all the abuse of Muslims recently I had thought that the greatest beneficiaries were the blacks as people stopped hating them for a while.

Back to your question though, the causes are the same causes affecting White deprived kids I think, but with the added problem of single mothers and young men that don’t stay around to be fathers. Add in drugs and turf wars. A single thing that could be done to help would be to legalise cannabis. This would end their income and stop much of the cause of the turf wars.

Short term, the solution to the problem is the same as many of our solutions - raise taxes, put more and better educated police on the street and reintroduce stop and search as well as focussed task forces on gang related violence and legalise cannabis. Unfortunately both raising taxes and legalising cannabis are taboo.
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SirWilliam
post Apr 7 2018, 08:27 AM
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The question that I would like to pose is do people commit crimes because they are driven by some perverse reasoning that the end justifies the means or are they not aware that their actions are completely antisocial? The thought of committing burglary or sticking a knife in someone is a complete anathema to most, so why is it so prevalent? Is the drug problem the root cause or is it something a little more complex?
There are interesting parallels with the American position in that "the only way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good guy with one", seems to gaining application over here. If the law allowed I would carry a pistol just in case. Now that is not a sensible approach but my family,friends safety comes first and unless the powers that be get a grip I can see it becoming the norm.


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je suis Charlie
post Apr 7 2018, 08:49 AM
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Anyone legally holding a firearms licence may, if he needs to defend himself and providing no pre meditation is evident use a registered firearm in extreme cases. Said person would find it difficult to explain quite how the firearm was to hand and not locked securely away as required under the act but, if the defence offered was that he was in fear of his or a loved one's life and, if the assailant was armed, it would be unlikely to result in a successful prosecution.
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newres
post Apr 7 2018, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Apr 7 2018, 09:27 AM) *
The question that I would like to pose is do people commit crimes because they are driven by some perverse reasoning that the end justifies the means or are they not aware that their actions are completely antisocial? The thought of committing burglary or sticking a knife in someone is a complete anathema to most, so why is it so prevalent? Is the drug problem the root cause or is it something a little more complex?
There are interesting parallels with the American position in that "the only way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good guy with one", seems to gaining application over here. If the law allowed I would carry a pistol just in case. Now that is not a sensible approach but my family,friends safety comes first and unless the powers that be get a grip I can see it becoming the norm.

There's an argument to say that withdrawing stop and search led to more people carrying guns because they know that those that might have been deterred by sus are no longer so deterred.
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Turin Machine
post Apr 7 2018, 09:12 AM
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Reintroduce stop and search, start taking the seriously, a case was reported in the Newbury news a few weeks ago of a local man stabbed in the chest and the assailant not jailed, really? Get the community to work with the police. Most of this is gang related with much of it involving drugs and guns, both of which are flooding in from Eastern Europe, try stricter border controls, that might help.


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Andy Capp
post Apr 7 2018, 09:34 AM
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I thought stop and search still existed? What was stopped was stop and search because they is black, in other words, it had to be for reasons other than the colour of their skin,
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On the edge
post Apr 7 2018, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 7 2018, 10:34 AM) *
I thought stop and search still existed? What was stopped was stop and search because they is black, in other words, it had to be for reasons other than the colour of their skin,


Exactly; the Met decided not to use these powers generally after formal enquiries revealed that they were abusing their authority usually in the way you describe.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Apr 7 2018, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 7 2018, 12:53 PM) *
Exactly; the Met decided not to use these powers generally after formal enquiries revealed that they were abusing their authority usually in the way you describe.

They were using profiling. If you are young and black in London you are more likely to carry a knife or be a victim of a knife attack than white or asian youngsters. That's just an unfortunate fact. Abandoning profiling is a mistake. Its uncomfortable but the other choice is lots more dead black teenagers. You can't have it both ways.
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On the edge
post Apr 7 2018, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Apr 7 2018, 01:22 PM) *
They were using profiling. If you are young and black in London you are more likely to carry a knife or be a victim of a knife attack than white or asian youngsters. That's just an unfortunate fact. Abandoning profiling is a mistake. Its uncomfortable but the other choice is lots more dead black teenagers. You can't have it both ways.


Ah yes, of course.

Then, the lads who did for Stephen Lawrence weren't black were they?

No, you can't have it both ways, but you can do your job properly.


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gel
post Apr 7 2018, 03:33 PM
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Following the Tony Martin case some years back there was a change in the law, and householders
are now permitted to use "disproportionate force" when a burglar threatens
householder or other members of the family.

This is why this recent shooting (+ murder) of a burglar in Colnbrook didn't lead to a prosecution of
the householder.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-42100525
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Apr 7 2018, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 7 2018, 04:01 PM) *
Ah yes, of course.

Then, the lads who did for Stephen Lawrence weren't black were they?

No, you can't have it both ways, but you can do your job properly.


The Stephen Lawrence case was awful and they are WHITE scum, but this is the exception to the rule, if you look at pictures of fatalities this year.
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On the edge
post Apr 7 2018, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Apr 7 2018, 05:14 PM) *
The Stephen Lawrence case was awful and they are WHITE scum, but this is the exception to the rule, if you look at pictures of fatalities this year.


It's quite a big exception if you take a period of time and do a proper analysis.

It's actually quite easy to properly justify 'shop and search' without using preset predudice and, ironically, secure a better clear up rate.

I'm sure you can see that not all black man is walking through an areas of high crime are criminals anymore than is the expectation that all lorry drivers are using a mobile phone whilst driving.



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newres
post Apr 8 2018, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 7 2018, 08:58 PM) *
It's quite a big exception if you take a period of time and do a proper analysis.

It's actually quite easy to properly justify 'shop and search' without using preset predudice and, ironically, secure a better clear up rate.

I'm sure you can see that not all black man is walking through an areas of high crime are criminals anymore than is the expectation that all lorry drivers are using a mobile phone whilst driving.

or all black men in BMWs are pimps or drug dealers. Itís not profiling, itís prefudice and the average policeman on the beat isnít too bright either although I think thatís changing.
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On the edge
post Apr 8 2018, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Apr 8 2018, 06:30 AM) *
or all black men in BMWs are pimps or drug dealers. Itís not profiling, itís prefudice and the average policeman on the beat isnít too bright either although I think thatís changing.


Fortunatley it us beginning to change, but it's going to be a long time. One of the biggest problems has been the command structure; where essentially the 'best operator' gets the promotion. Fast track graduate entry is now becoming the norm and will eventually lead to properly educated and trained seniors.

Much as I might rail against it, the Police are a classic example demonstrating the benefits of the French and German approach to management and senior level roles, which are only avaliable to those who already hold academic qualification.


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