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Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 23 2009, 09:32 AM

Within eight years, says DaFT

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/railelectrification.pdf

Good news for passengers, ultimately, although Kintbury passengers etc, will have to change at Newbury. Good news for home owners, too, as the value of properties always tend to go up if they are near a station with electric trains to London, making it attractive for commuters. Not such good news for those locals seeking to buy a home, perhaps...

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 23 2009, 10:13 AM

The drunks crossing the line in the night at Newbury station may have a bit of a 'shock' coming to them then.

Posted by: GrumblingAgain Jul 23 2009, 10:16 AM

Why?

Posted by: JeffG Jul 23 2009, 10:20 AM

Agreed - why indeed? It will be overhead - not old-fashioned Southern third rail stuff.

Posted by: GrumblingAgain Jul 23 2009, 10:31 AM

Will it really happen though or is it just another in a long line of Labour's lies and broken promises?

With massive cut backs looming, although beneficial, won't it be scaled back or halted altogether by a Government seeking to save money by spending on only essential projects?

Before you get excited over the thought of shiney new electrical trains coming our way! - new trains will be built for the London to Bristol and Swansea route, but they are unlikely to get used on our commuter services to Newbury! It is rumoured that Newbury/Oxford will only get hand-me-down stock from other lines around the country and so we will end up with second-hand and rather old trains, which probably won't offer any commuter benefits other than a lack of diesel smell.

Posted by: Johngreybeard Jul 23 2009, 11:03 AM

Posted by: Johngreybeard Jul 23 2009, 11:05 AM

You are quite right about the standatd of trains we would get just look at what has happened in other parts of the country! But it should make the journey quicker and no smell of diesel!!!!

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 23 2009, 11:09 AM

According to the DfT - Class 319 units, currently working the Thameslink services, will be refurbished and equipped with air con, these are sure to be able to accelerate better than the moth eaten FGW diesel stuff we have now on local trains. I'd always assumed that faster acceleration between station stops meant shorter journey times.

Never heard of an electrification scheme being abandoned altogether, except for some London Transport lines north of the river which bit the dust as a result of WW2. Delayed, perhaps, but it's most certainly a move in the right direction, unless you are a regular user of Thatcham Level Crossing

Posted by: Branston Pickle Jul 23 2009, 12:15 PM

Am I alone in thinking that only electrifying as far as Newbury is a bit pointless? It either means running diesel trains on an electric line, or else everyone changing at Newbury. I once heard that running diesel trains on a electric line is quite expensive, so would probably result in a hike in fares. The other alternative would seem to involve running quite a few extra trains, again leading to a rise in fares. It will possibly also mean that Newbury will lose express services to London and the West country, as the HST's will be replaced by electric units that couldn't operate west of Newbury.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 23 2009, 12:55 PM

It's a start, I suppose, like when they only electrified from Kings X to Royston before going through to Cambridge and Kings Lynn a few years later. Diesel trains come up from Salisbury and beyond now, running from west of B'stoke and into Waterloo on an electrified railway and have done since 1967. Sadly the HSTs are about worn out, 30 plus years old, and will have to be replaced within the next ten years anyway - they have been a phenomenal British success story. I think they propose some kind of dual power replacement for them, these being able to take electric power when under the 25 k.v. wires. One benefit of electrification should be a much enhanced service from Newbury to Padd (at the moment it doesn't compare well with that available from B'stoke into London), it is to be regretted nationally that we have so many railway routes not yet electrified - St Pancras to Sheffield being a very good example. As for financing it all, you may depend that the farepayer will contribute handsomely whatever happens.

Posted by: GrumblingAgain Jul 23 2009, 01:52 PM

So we wont be getting new trains for the local services, as I thought. It will be second hand units which are actually older than the current Turbo units (just!), but of course younger than the highly successful 125s which are used to some extent on commuter services.

Sure they will be refurbished, but then so can our current stock if need be!

I don't see that 319 trains will be anymore comfortable than the existing commuter stock, although the extra 10mph in maximum speed would shave a bit of time off the end to end journey times, along with slightly better acceleration times, but unless the train makes multiple stops it won't save that much time, and no one wants to be on a train that stops at most stations between Reading and London!

I wasn't suggesting the whole complete project would get abandoned once started, but I am not convinced it will actually start! I reckon all we will get is an extension of the London Cross Rail electrification scheme to Reading and then onwards to Newbury & Oxford, whilst the main line West to Bristol/Swansea gets shelved in favour of more modern new diesels (which would then cover all the Westward routes like now).

Electrification is of course the right way to go, and as you say, a start, but I would have perferred to see a more dramatical approach - electrify the main lines to Swansea, Bristol etc, and all the Thames Valley branches, but rebuild for 6-12 length trains and raise bridges sufficiently to allow for double decker trains. GWML is better suited for that once all overbridges are raised. Now that would have really tackled the overcrowding problems rather than just a few minutes shaved off the end to end journey.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 23 2009, 03:50 PM

If you refurbish the turbos they still won't be much cop, they don't even have corridor connections between the sets, hardly a good thing for a suburban train and going into Reading I am amazed at how sluggish the acceleration is on them. An electric train will easily outpace them - as for comfort (I always feel like having a good scratch when I get off a turbo in case any fleas have climbed on to me, btw) afraid the DafT don't appear too concerned about that - squeeezing the maximum number of seats into a vehicle seems to be the game now, irrespective of legroom and we all know what the train operators other business is, don't we?

Posted by: GrumblingAgain Jul 23 2009, 05:12 PM

The comfort levels on them will be no better than the current turbos. Instead of the noise from the engines under the train all you will get is the high pitched whine of the electrics and that will be it!

Regarding connections between units, I am not toally sure, but aren't they for emergency use only and would not be used normally?

What we will end up with in 2017 or whenever will be vastly inferior to what is being touted right now! I am sure the London to Bristol/Swansea services will be brilliant, but I am not convinced about London to Newbury/Oxford services!

Now if we were getting 140+mph units like those just introduced between Ashford and St Pancras that would clearly justify the £1Billion bill (bound to be £4Billion by 2017)

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 23 2009, 06:16 PM

Oh, yeah - I am too used to travelling with SWT on the modern stuff - of course the 319s only have front doors, sorry! With air con on refurbished units the noise levels bound to be lower, can't say I ever find the noise of the diesel engines under the floor of turbos particularly intrusive, anyway. Dream on regarding those Javelins - that certainly won't be happening - but to think in the 60s, the whole future for rail travel looked grim

Posted by: Darren Jul 23 2009, 07:01 PM

You never know, they may take the opportunity to replace said crossing with a bridge. It's been talked about enough over the years.

Posted by: GMR Jul 23 2009, 07:46 PM

I saw this on the news tonight; it will make it a lot cheaper all around.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 23 2009, 08:27 PM

In case anyone is that interested in such details, this is how it's supposed to pan out in respect of rolling stock moves:

319s cascaded from Thameslink to GW Thames Valley in December 2016
165s cascaded from GW Thames Valley to GW Bristol area (probably Cardiff – Portsmouth) in December 2016;
DMUs from Bristol area that are freed up when 165s are parachuted in, to be cascaded to Northern to boost capacity in December 2016;
New four car EMUs to be procured to operate Manchester – Scotland TransPennine Express services, delivery 2013;
Class 185 DMUs freed up when new EMUs enter service to be used to strengthen existing 185 operated TPE services in 2013
319s cascaded from Thameslink to Northern electrified routes in 2013 (or earlier);
Super-duper express replacing HSTs across all the GW from December 2016

HSTs freed up for the Voyager replacement project (tee hee);
Pacer replacement project, starting with Northern at franchise renewal in 2013 and continuing with ATW in 2018.

By that time, we should be into long (15 year) franchises, allowing the TOCs to commit to new trains with some forward thinking.


Unless of course the Tories turn the juice off...

Posted by: GrumblingAgain Jul 23 2009, 08:34 PM

I hope we get a regular interval service throughout the day up to the last train from Reading around midnight - 1am. Wouldn't it be nice if you could leave Paddington around the 11:30 - 00:00 time and still get home, like many other places the same distance from the capital can do.

I hate the long gap between trains from Reading mid to late evening we have at the moment.

I am almost certain the Tories will do so

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 24 2009, 09:41 AM

Good. Branson, National Express & Stagecoach have all made way too much dosh out of the tax payer 'running' the rail service in this country.

Posted by: Darren Jul 24 2009, 09:57 AM

Give me Virgin Trains any day over Last Worst Western. It's like travelling in another world.

Perhaps they should electrify everything out of Paddington. That way the marvellous Brunel Roof will stay cleaner for longer.

He'll be spinning in his grave at the way his legacy is treated now.

Posted by: James_Trinder Jul 24 2009, 12:41 PM

It wasn't so long ago that the last train out of Paddington that would allow you to get back to Newbury was 22:15. Therefore I am grateful for the current state of affairs at the moment.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 24 2009, 03:52 PM

Yes, and you may depend whatever government is in power, will continue to do so, given the mickey mouse way the Tories privatised the railways, compounded by Labour doing b*gger all about changing it once they came to power. Well, perhaps not NEX, they are poised to be stripped of the other two franchises they currently hold. Actually, the train services run by the three groups you mention are, in my experience, generally pretty good, especially Stagecoach with SWT who run a timetable that is boringly reliable, convenient and actually works. You don't mention the dreaded 'First' Group - are we to take it that you don't think they have yet made too much money out of the taxpayer? I do hope not

Posted by: JeffG Jul 24 2009, 04:05 PM

He was probably a bit miffed when they ripped up his 7-foot gauge track, too

Posted by: Biker1 Jul 24 2009, 05:50 PM

Virgin Trains who operate the West Coast line out of Euston have had billions of pounds spent by the government on new trains, improved track and new signalling.

First Great Western have had to make do with the 15 year old turbos and the refurbished 32 year old HST's.

No money spent on electrification and very little on track and signalling.

It's not always the train company's fault.

Posted by: Biker1 Jul 24 2009, 05:51 PM

He certainly was and he was right too!!

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 24 2009, 06:06 PM

Yes, but that doesn't excuse them from reducing the level of catering on a lot of trains or from, would you believe it, reducing the number of loos on Reading Station. Virgin Trains IMHO is, like Beardie himself, heavy on show and light on substance - I have a savings plan with them!

Posted by: Biker1 Jul 24 2009, 06:20 PM

FGW are refurbishing some more buffets for their HST's

Can't speak for Reading but Newbury has recently refurbished loos and new ones on Platform 1.

Posted by: Hugh Saskin Jul 24 2009, 06:55 PM

Will they put them back again, though? Some of the Exeter services now only have a trolley service, suspect that's curtains for hot food - certainly it's a year or two since it was possible to obtain a full breakfast when heading west on any service from Reading. Sorry, I still think FGW are rubbish.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 1 2009, 04:46 AM

More improvements to the local railway.

I see we now have a new station at Hamstead Marshall!!

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article.aspx?articleID=10678