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Newbury Today Forum _ Random Rants _ J.D.Wetherspoon carpark (AKA Hatchet)

Posted by: royston Aug 30 2012, 07:40 AM

Made the biggest mistake on Wed.went as usual to Hatchet for lunch,didnt have enough cash for parking meter so went in as usual to obtain cash but pub was very busy and only one person serving so it took a while to get served .when I got ticket and returned to car in their car park I found a penalty notice in my windscreen demanding £50. The operative must have been sitting in his/her vehicle and when I went into pub issued the ticket. Needless to say its highly improbable that I shall ever visit this pub again whilst they use these cowboy operators.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 30 2012, 08:07 AM

QUOTE (royston @ Aug 30 2012, 08:40 AM) *
Made the biggest mistake on Wed.went as usual to Hatchet for lunch,didnt have enough cash for parking meter so went in as usual to obtain cash but pub was very busy and only one person serving so it took a while to get served .when I got ticket and returned to car in their car park I found a penalty notice in my windscreen demanding £50. The operative must have been sitting in his/her vehicle and when I went into pub issued the ticket. Needless to say its highly improbable that I shall ever visit this pub again whilst they use these cowboy operators.

Just ignore the ticket.
See if they take you to court.
Have a read http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets it may help.
Boycott the pub though, as I would.
Have you tried contacting the manager to see their take on it?

Posted by: Newbelly Aug 30 2012, 09:53 AM

Lots of advice on the link given. Remember it is not a fine, only a demand for breach of contract.

Ignoring it, or offering a reasonable sum for parking, may well work.

Just in case you do end up in a fight, one thing I would do if I were you, and before memories fade or personnel change, is to find the bar person you spoke to and get a note recorded in that you asked them for change to pay for parking and then used the pub as a customer.


Posted by: Strafin Aug 30 2012, 09:55 AM

I would contact the management as well, they may be able to do something. I parked there on Saturday night and didn't even realise that I could have been clamped.

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 30 2012, 09:57 AM

QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 30 2012, 10:55 AM) *
I would contact the management as well, they may be able to do something. I parked there on Saturday night and didn't even realise that I could have been clamped.

Always read the small print Strafin! wink.gif
Remember, I got caught out by not doing that in a council "free" car park!

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 11:41 AM

Better still, just don't drive the Newbury.

Posted by: dannyboy Aug 30 2012, 11:53 AM

QUOTE (Biker1 @ Aug 30 2012, 10:57 AM) *
Always read the small print Strafin! wink.gif
Remember, I got caught out by not doing that in a council "free" car park!

The signs in the Hatchet are pretty big.......

Posted by: Biker1 Aug 30 2012, 12:13 PM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Aug 30 2012, 12:53 PM) *
The signs in the Hatchet are pretty big.......

Always read the large and small print Strafin! wink.gif

Posted by: Strafin Aug 30 2012, 01:19 PM

I read two signs that said about cars being left at the owners risk and all that but nothing about clamping. I rarely drive into Newbury anyway, this just puts me off more.

Posted by: JeffG Aug 30 2012, 03:16 PM

I thought clamping on private property had recently been outlawed.

Posted by: Strafin Aug 30 2012, 04:09 PM

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_190178

From October - not long now!

Posted by: GMR Aug 30 2012, 05:00 PM

QUOTE (royston @ Aug 30 2012, 08:40 AM) *
Made the biggest mistake on Wed.went as usual to Hatchet for lunch,didnt have enough cash for parking meter so went in as usual to obtain cash but pub was very busy and only one person serving so it took a while to get served .when I got ticket and returned to car in their car park I found a penalty notice in my windscreen demanding £50. The operative must have been sitting in his/her vehicle and when I went into pub issued the ticket. Needless to say its highly improbable that I shall ever visit this pub again whilst they use these cowboy operators.



You don't need to use the parking facilities in Newbury as their are plenty of free parking around.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 05:46 PM

I read that a parking fine in a private car park is enforced as breach of contract: but is there a contract? If you haven't paid then there's no consideration and so no contract, no?

If the parking fine is for breach of contract then the carpark can only demand what it lost (the cost of parking) and reasonable administration, no? I'd have thought £20 was top-whack for sticking a ticken on the car, no? £50 looks to me like a punative "fine", and that's not enforceable is it - I'm pretty sure it's not fair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

In principle you could complain to WBC Trading Standards that the £50 "fine" is an unfair term under the Unfair Terms in Consumner Contracts Regulations 1999, though I doubt you'll get much joy.

I expect the pub to waive the ticket if you can prove to them that you were in there getting change for the meter, though if you can't it's hard to say that the pub is being unreasonable by insisting that you pay up, though I think £50 is way too much.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 06:46 PM) *
I expect the pub to waive the ticket if you can prove to them that you were in there getting change for the meter, though if you can't it's hard to say that the pub is being unreasonable by insisting that you pay up, though I think £50 is way too much.

I suspect the 'parking management' is out-sourced.

Posted by: Newbelly Aug 30 2012, 06:00 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 06:46 PM) *
I read that a parking fine in a private car park is enforced as breach of contract: but is there a contract? If you haven't paid then there's no consideration and so no contract, no?

Simon

The "ticket" is not a fine.

Nice thinking, but a contract is not disabled because one party has not yet paid!

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 07:00 PM) *
The "ticket" is not a fine.

I didn't want to say "parking ticket" because that's what I'd call the the little piece of paper you get from the machine, I thought "parking fine" better described the bigger bit of paper the operative puts on your windscreen. No, it's not a "fine" in the sense of a statutory parking fine, but if £50 is in excess of the loss due to the breach and a reasonable sum to cover administration, then it looks to me like a punative charge and I don't believe that's enforceable as it's an unfair contract term. What do you think?

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 07:00 PM) *
Nice thinking, but a contract is not disabled because one party has not yet paid!

From what's been said that's right in this case because there was a firm and settled intention to park and pay for a ticket, but just say for argument's sake that I parked there fully intending not to pay - aren't I just a trespasser? Could the car park owner prove there was a contract in that situation?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 07:22 PM) *
I didn't want to say "parking ticket" because that's what I'd call the the little piece of paper you get from the machine, I thought "parking fine" better described the bigger bit of paper the operative puts on your windscreen. No, it's not a "fine" in the sense of a statutory parking fine, but if £50 is in excess of the loss due to the breach and a reasonable sum to cover administration, then it looks to me like a punative charge and I don't believe that's enforceable as it's an unfair contract term. What do you think?

It also might depend on what Strafin's parking prevented from happening. Strafin might have stopped for a coke and a bag of crisps, but meanwhile prevented someone from parking who might be prepared to buy a slap-up meal.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 07:22 PM) *
From what's been said that's right in this case because there was a firm and settled intention to park and pay for a ticket, but just say for argument's sake that I parked there fully intending not to pay - aren't I just a trespasser? Could the car park owner prove there was a contract in that situation?

No, because intent to pay up for a contract, or not, doesn't invalidate the broken contract from being a basis from which to proceed.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 30 2012, 07:31 PM) *
No, because intent to pay up for a contract, or not, doesn't invalidate the broken contract from being a basis from which to proceed.

There is case law that says that, in effect, if you don't intend to pay it's trespass and there is no contract - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_v_London_Borough_of_Waltham_Forest.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 06:51 PM

Lots more stuff http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/private-parking-penalties/.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 07:00 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 07:47 PM) *
There is case law that says that, in effect, if you don't intend to pay it's trespass and there is no contract - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_v_London_Borough_of_Waltham_Forest.

That is not true in this example. An appeal was successful because the appeal judge was satisfied that the person parking the car was unaware of the likelihood of being clamped if they parked without paying. If you park knowing that you might be clamped if you don't make the appropriate payment, you in effect agree to the condition.

Posted by: Newbelly Aug 30 2012, 07:03 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 07:51 PM) *
Lots more stuff http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/private-parking-penalties/.


Be careful you do not confuse clamping as a trespass against a vehicle with a trespass of a vehicle on land.

From the link you provide:

If you have committed a very minor "breach of contract" in a privately owned carpark, such as a wheel on a white line or a few minutes overstay and get hit with a ridiculous "penalty" of £80 to £150, it sometimes works to write to the parking enforcement agency enclosing a cheque for £10 "in full and final rreasonable settlement for my minor breach of contract in your carpark.

Cowboy parking companies rely on fear, ignorance or laziness of the driver in order to make money.

Bringing an action under contract is a lot easier than under tort.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 07:38 PM

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 08:03 PM) *
Be careful you do not confuse clamping as a trespass against a vehicle with a trespass of a vehicle on land.

From the link you provide:

If you have committed a very minor "breach of contract" in a privately owned carpark, such as a wheel on a white line or a few minutes overstay and get hit with a ridiculous "penalty" of £80 to £150, it sometimes works to write to the parking enforcement agency enclosing a cheque for £10 "in full and final rreasonable settlement for my minor breach of contract in your carpark.

Cowboy parking companies rely on fear, ignorance or laziness of the driver in order to make money.

Bringing an action under contract is a lot easier than under tort.

Yes, I'd spotted that too. No, the judgment also found that as Vine had mistakenly believed that parking was free that there wasn't a contract and she was in fact just a trespasser.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 07:39 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 30 2012, 08:00 PM) *
That is not true in this example. An appeal was successful because the appeal judge was satisfied that the person parking the car was unaware of the likelihood of being clamped if they parked without paying. If you park knowing that you might be clamped if you don't make the appropriate payment, you in effect agree to the condition.

Yes, none of this applies to the OP - sorry, I'll leave it there.

Posted by: Newbelly Aug 30 2012, 07:42 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 08:38 PM) *
Yes, I'd spotted that too. No, the judgment also found that as Vine had mistakenly believed that parking was free that there wasn't a contract and she was in fact just a trespasser.


We are told that the first thing the OP did was to go and get change to pay for parking as he/she knew payment was required.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 08:39 PM) *
Yes, none of this applies to the OP - sorry, I'll leave it there.

I think this is a lot more on topic than other comments on other threads!

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 08:42 PM) *
We are told that the first thing the OP did was to go and get change to pay for parking as he/she knew payment was required.

Yes, like I said, this was all a what-if, and not helpful to the OP. Sorry.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 30 2012, 08:43 PM) *
I think this is a lot more on topic than other comments on other threads!

Well maybe it's useful background, but £50 is an unpleasantly high charge and I wish royston the best of luck in getting it waived. I think the best option is to write to Wetherspoons with as much evidence of intention to pay as possible, maybe offering £10 in full and final settlement.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 08:42 PM) *
We are told that the first thing the OP did was to go and get change to pay for parking as he/she knew payment was required.

But was not aware of the penalty if he didn't, so Simon's idea is not without merit. Strafin knew he was required to pay to park, but not that he would get a £50.00 wheel-clamp release fee if he took a while to get change.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 30 2012, 08:47 PM) *
Well maybe it's useful background, but £50 is an unpleasantly high charge and I wish royston the best of luck in getting it waived. I think the best option is to write to Wetherspoons with as much evidence of intention to pay as possible, maybe offering £10 in full and final settlement.

Like I said earlier, I doubt Wetherspoons have anything to do with the car park operation.

Posted by: Newbelly Aug 30 2012, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 30 2012, 08:52 PM) *
But was not aware of the penalty if he didn't, so Simon's idea is not without merit. Strafin knew he was required to pay to park, but not that he would get a £50.00 wheel-clamp release fee if he took a while to get change.

You mean royston? Wheel clamping?

Was not the the penalty on the sign?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 08:56 PM) *
You mean royston?

Sorry, yes.

QUOTE (Newbelly @ Aug 30 2012, 08:56 PM) *
Was not the the penalty on the sign?

I don't know, presumably it was, but I don't think that alters the point.

From the link:

"Although it might reasonably be inferred that a motorist saw and understood the signs as a result of their numbers, size and location it was insufficient that an appellant had simply had the opportunity to see warning signs but that they must also have read and understood them and only then, by doing so, could they consent to the act of clamping if they parked in contravention to the notices.

By extension, it was held, if the fee was exorbitant then consent to its payment could not be implied."



Sadly in royston's case, I doubt £50.00 would be considered 'exorbitant'.

As an aside, most places have CCTV, that could give evidence to support royston, or not.

Posted by: JeffG Aug 30 2012, 08:15 PM

Hang on, I'm getting confused here. Are people saying that a private pub car park (the Hatchet) has parking meters?

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (JeffG @ Aug 30 2012, 09:15 PM) *
Hang on, I'm getting confused here. Are people saying that a private pub car park (the Hatchet) has parking meters?

The OP...

QUOTE (royston @ Aug 30 2012, 08:40 AM) *
Made the biggest mistake on Wed.went as usual to Hatchet for lunch,didnt have enough cash for parking meter so went in as usual to obtain cash but pub was very busy and only one person serving so it took a while to get served .when I got ticket and returned to car in their car park I found a penalty notice in my windscreen demanding £50. The operative must have been sitting in his/her vehicle and when I went into pub issued the ticket. Needless to say its highly improbable that I shall ever visit this pub again whilst they use these cowboy operators.

Posted by: JeffG Aug 30 2012, 08:25 PM

Doesn't really answer my question. The OP doesn't say where he parked. It developed later into a discussion about the Hatchet car park. I am really expressing my surprise that a private car park should have parking meters.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Aug 30 2012, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (JeffG @ Aug 30 2012, 09:25 PM) *
Doesn't really answer my question. The OP doesn't say where he parked. It developed later into a discussion about the Hatchet car park. I am really expressing my surprise that a private car park should have parking meters.

Yes, the Hatchet's web site say it has a pay-and-display car park.
QUOTE ("The Hatchet")
Car parking is available on site, it is a pay and display car park.


See http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/home/hotels/the-hatchet-inn.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (JeffG @ Aug 30 2012, 09:25 PM) *
Doesn't really answer my question. The OP doesn't say where he parked. It developed later into a discussion about the Hatchet car park. I am really expressing my surprise that a private car park should have parking meters.

I think it is clear enough. wink.gif

QUOTE (royston @ Aug 30 2012, 08:40 AM) *
went as usual to Hatchet for lunch, didnt have enough cash for parking meter so went in as usual to obtain cash but pub was very busy and only one person serving so it took a while to get served .when I got ticket and returned to car in their car park I found a penalty notice in my windscreen demanding £50.

Posted by: user23 Aug 30 2012, 08:38 PM

Isn't this car park run by NCP?

Posted by: Exhausted Aug 30 2012, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 30 2012, 08:52 PM) *
But was not aware of the penalty if he didn't, so Simon's idea is not without merit. Strafin knew he was required to pay to park, but not that he would get a £50.00 wheel-clamp release fee if he took a while to get change.


Like I said earlier, I doubt Wetherspoons have anything to do with the car park operation.


Where did the bit about a clamp come from. I thought the penalty was just a written note stuck on the windscreen.
If it was a private car park, are there signs that clearly identify the terms for using the car park.

I wonder if the OP is using a bit of poetic licence here over the fact that he returned to his car after a reasonable time as it would be unreasonable to not give at least 5 mins grace before slapping on a ticket.
Does the DVLA give away driver/owner details to private companies or individuals these days. If not then trash it, they won't find you.

Posted by: Andy Capp Aug 30 2012, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (Exhausted @ Aug 30 2012, 09:49 PM) *
Where did the bit about a clamp come from.

You are right, I think some of use have started to confuse the story with other events.

Posted by: Strafin Aug 30 2012, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Exhausted @ Aug 30 2012, 09:49 PM) *
I wonder if the OP is using a bit of poetic licence here over the fact that he returned to his car after a reasonable time as it would be unreasonable to not give at least 5 mins grace before slapping on a ticket.
Does the DVLA give away driver/owner details to private companies or individuals these days. If not then trash it, they won't find you.

I wondered that as well, seems a little suspect, but I would believe Royston over a parking company any day. I believe the DVLA SELL details not give them away.

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