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> Leaving the EU, what would happen if we left the EU?
Andy Capp
post Jun 13 2012, 08:02 PM
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I'm anti EU in so far as it seems rubbish at what we need it to be best at, but on the same note, individual countries couldn't contend with the emerging powers from the East and Far East.

My feelings are that things wouldn't be as bad as pro-EU commentators say, but things would be as good as anti-EU commentators say - if we were to leave the EU.
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Simon Kirby
post Jun 13 2012, 08:40 PM
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What would happen if we left the EU?:

1. We'd be free to abolish VAT. This is a Good Thing. It costs shed loads to collect and the government could just as easily collect the equivelent revenue through income tax and save that expense.

2. We'd be free to leave the Council of Europe and reimpose the death penalty. This is a Good Thing because 10 years in jail for stabbing someone to death is not a just punishment.

3. We'd be free to leave the Council of Europe and repeal Article 8 of the Human Rights Act. This is a Good Thing because there's no obvious reason why giving people a right to a family life is naturally an inalienable human right and it's created some incongruous and stupid consequences.

4. We would have control over our borders and wouldn't be obliged to admit eccomonic migrants. This is probably a Good Thing because we're a small island and we're getting rather over crowded, but it's not without its problems because ecconomic migrants tend to work very much harder than us and their industry helps our ecconomy, but then there'd be nothing stopping us allowing ecconomic migration if it was to our benefit.

5. We would risk becoming isolated from powerful and potentially dangerous neighbours. This is probably a Bad Thing. We've been more or less continuously at war with Germany and France sonce the Romans bugged out and left us to it and while NATO has kept us sweet for a couple of generations it's only worked because we had a common enemy in the Warsaw Pact, but as Europe starts to crumble ecconomically its constituent nations are likely to start squabbling and without the threat of the common enemy to occupy us our isolation may make us vulnerable to hostility, particularly as no one on the continent likes us very much anyways.

6. Our industry may find it harder to trade with Europe. This isn't necessarily true as we might be able to join the European Free Trade Association, and we might also choose to trade with our old empire buddies in the Commonwealth and thumb our noses at Europe, and it would also create new opportunities for British industry which can't currently compete with Europe, particularly in agriculture. This might be a Good Thing.


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Andy Capp
post Jun 13 2012, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
What would happen if we left the EU?:

1. We'd be free to abolish VAT. This is a Good Thing. It costs shed loads to collect and the government could just as easily collect the equivelent revenue through income tax and save that expense.

I see that the opposite way round, although VAT is unfair on the low paid.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
2. We'd be free to leave the Council of Europe and reimpose the death penalty. This is a Good Thing because 10 years in jail for stabbing someone to death is not a just punishment.

I'm not sure the reintroduction of the DP would be a given. I'd say the country is split on the idea.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
3. We'd be free to leave the Council of Europe and repeal Article 8 of the Human Rights Act. This is a Good Thing because there's no obvious reason why giving people a right to a family life is naturally an inalienable human right and it's created some incongruous and stupid consequences.

Just a tweak needed here. Other people's right to a family life could, or should, take precedence. A number of high profile consequences have been due to a failure of the authorities to act swiftly.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
4. We would have control over our borders and wouldn't be obliged to admit eccomonic migrants. This is probably a Good Thing because we're a small island and we're getting rather over crowded, but it's not without its problems because ecconomic migrants tend to work very much harder than us and their industry helps our ecconomy, but then there'd be nothing stopping us allowing ecconomic migration if it was to our benefit.

The current social orthodoxy requires a certain ratio of old and young. As we are ageing, we require younger people. We have to wait 16 or more years for people to grow, where as foreigners are ready to go.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
5. We would risk becoming isolated from powerful and potentially dangerous neighbours. This is probably a Bad Thing. We've been more or less continuously at war with Germany and France sonce the Romans bugged out and left us to it and while NATO has kept us sweet for a couple of generations it's only worked because we had a common enemy in the Warsaw Pact, but as Europe starts to crumble ecconomically its constituent nations are likely to start squabbling and without the threat of the common enemy to occupy us our isolation may make us vulnerable to hostility, particularly as no one on the continent likes us very much anyways.

This is partly true, but the States would see us as an easily accessible stage from which to operate defence systems.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
6. Our industry may find it harder to trade with Europe. This isn't necessarily true as we might be able to join the European Free Trade Association, and we might also choose to trade with our old empire buddies in the Commonwealth and thumb our noses at Europe, and it would also create new opportunities for British industry which can't currently compete with Europe, particularly in agriculture. This might be a Good Thing.

Few European countries will have the wealth to buy our stuff at a sustainable rate I suspect.
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Simon Kirby
post Jun 13 2012, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 13 2012, 10:16 PM) *
Just a tweak needed here. Other people's right to a family life could, or should, take precedence. A number of high profile consequences have been due to a failure of the authorities to act swiftly.

Very true, and Article 8 is one of the few things that discourages local authorities from separating old couples in need of care - you'd think basic humanity would be enough without the HRA, but history shows that it isn't. Even so, Article 8 does seem anomalous.

There'd be no obligation to reimpose the DP of course, but while we're in the EU it isn't even a possibility. Not enough justification for leaving, but were we to leave I would like to see a referendum on it for violent offences.

I think we have way too many public servants of all kinds, and multiple kinds of taxation just seems like idiocy to me with the replication of staff to collect and administer it, and I just don't see the point of VAT when the equivelent nett revenue could be collected through income tax without any difficulty. It's also another administrative burden on businesses which does nothing to help our productivity and efficiency other than creating busy-work for accountants.


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Timbo
post Jun 13 2012, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM) *
What would happen if we left the EU?:

1. We'd be free to abolish VAT. This is a Good Thing. It costs shed loads to collect and the government could just as easily collect the equivelent revenue through income tax and save that expense.


Yes

QUOTE
2. We'd be free to leave the Council of Europe and reimpose the death penalty. This is a Good Thing because 10 years in jail for stabbing someone to death is not a just punishment.


I don't think the death penalty works... crime rates in America are higher than here even per 1000 people and their punishments are far stricter.. Perhaps introduce stricter jail sentences..

QUOTE
3. We'd be free to leave the Council of Europe and repeal Article 8 of the Human Rights Act. This is a Good Thing because there's no obvious reason why giving people a right to a family life is naturally an inalienable human right and it's created some incongruous and stupid consequences.


I'm liking this.

QUOTE
4. We would have control over our borders and wouldn't be obliged to admit eccomonic migrants. This is probably a Good Thing because we're a small island and we're getting rather over crowded, but it's not without its problems because ecconomic migrants tend to work very much harder than us and their industry helps our ecconomy, but then there'd be nothing stopping us allowing ecconomic migration if it was to our benefit.


Liking this more. I think we could help sort the employment problem by sourcing talent within our own borders, training people if necessary. Workers can enter under a Work Visa and have to return to their country of origin when/if their employment ends.

QUOTE
5. We would risk becoming isolated from powerful and potentially dangerous neighbours. This is probably a Bad Thing. We've been more or less continuously at war with Germany and France sonce the Romans bugged out and left us to it and while NATO has kept us sweet for a couple of generations it's only worked because we had a common enemy in the Warsaw Pact, but as Europe starts to crumble ecconomically its constituent nations are likely to start squabbling and without the threat of the common enemy to occupy us our isolation may make us vulnerable to hostility, particularly as no one on the continent likes us very much anyways.


I won't lie, war isn't my strong point. I see it as a bunch of fat controllers sitting around in secret rooms having dodgy meetings, over oil or money, not about rights and wrongs like it was in WW1/WW2. Treaties and pacts can still remain in place, they don't need to be members of a common "grouping" to have them apply.

QUOTE
6. Our industry may find it harder to trade with Europe. This isn't necessarily true as we might be able to join the European Free Trade Association, and we might also choose to trade with our old empire buddies in the Commonwealth and thumb our noses at Europe, and it would also create new opportunities for British industry which can't currently compete with Europe, particularly in agriculture. This might be a Good Thing.


Trade would continue as normal as I see it, countries aren't going to stop selling or buying.

I've felt that we should leave the EU for a long time. But unfortunately I don't believe anyone in this government or any governments in the foreseeable future will have the meat and two veg for the task. Or the tuna.

ohmy.gif
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Bloggo
post Jun 14 2012, 08:22 AM
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I believe that we should be allowed to have the referendum on that we were promised by Cameron before the tories were elected.
It is for the people of this country to decide if we stay in or leave or adopt any position in between.
The EU is a mess both financially and organisationally.
When we voted to join the EU we voted for a free market relationship not to have our sovereignty eroded. It's time to vote again.
For the record I voted against membership all those years ago and still believe I was right.


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andy1979uk
post Jun 14 2012, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jun 14 2012, 09:22 AM) *
I believe that we should be allowed to have the referendum on that we were promised by Cameron before the tories were elected.
It is for the people of this country to decide if we stay in or leave or adopt any position in between.
The EU is a mess both financially and organisationally.
When we voted to join the EU we voted for a free market relationship not to have our sovereignty eroded. It's time to vote again.
For the record I voted against membership all those years ago and still believe I was right.



I see that the opposite way round, although VAT is unfair on the low paid. - Disagree VAT is a tax that everyone can pay, if you only tax income only the working contribute.
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lordtup
post Jun 14 2012, 08:31 AM
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I tend to liken it to being a member of some exclusive club . Membership subs are high ( "reassuring expensive"),you get to wear a posh tie and dine at the trough of plenty if the god of privilege has smiled upon you.

If we unilaterally upped and left the Germans would be cross , the French delighted and the Greeks would still be in turmoil. In other words life goes on but as with all parallel universes you don't know till you go there. rolleyes.gif

ps. Being a member of the EU doesn't prevent us from hanging criminals any more than leaving would allow.


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andy1979uk
post Jun 14 2012, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE (lordtup @ Jun 14 2012, 09:31 AM) *
I tend to liken it to being a member of some exclusive club . Membership subs are high ( "reassuring expensive"),you get to wear a posh tie and dine at the trough of plenty if the god of privilege has smiled upon you.

If we unilaterally upped and left the Germans would be cross , the French delighted and the Greeks would still be in turmoil. In other words life goes on but as with all parallel universes you don't know till you go there. rolleyes.gif

ps. Being a member of the EU doesn't prevent us from hanging criminals any more than leaving would allow.


We need to abolish this human rights crap, and stop the amount of immigration.
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Simon Kirby
post Jun 14 2012, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE (andy1979uk @ Jun 14 2012, 09:37 AM) *
We need to abolish this human rights crap, and stop the amount of immigration.

What "crap" is that then?


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Biker1
post Jun 14 2012, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (andy1979uk @ Jun 14 2012, 09:37 AM) *
and stop the amount of immigration.

Otherwise we'll run out of water! wink.gif
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andy1979uk
post Jun 14 2012, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE (andy1979uk @ Jun 14 2012, 09:37 AM) *
We need to abolish this human rights crap, and stop the amount of immigration.


The fact that criminals can't have any form of punishment as it is against their human rights, people claim benefits as it against their human rights not to have a council house etc etc. All out of control.
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Bloggo
post Jun 14 2012, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE (andy1979uk @ Jun 14 2012, 09:58 AM) *
The fact that criminals can't have any form of punishment as it is against their human rights, people claim benefits as it against their human rights not to have a council house etc etc. All out of control.

Although not strictly acurate I sympathise with your observations.


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andy1979uk
post Jun 14 2012, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jun 14 2012, 10:08 AM) *
Although not strictly acurate I sympathise with your observations.


It's causing alot the 'nappy state' we now live in. That and a welfare system that is a complete joke.
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Roger T
post Jun 14 2012, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jun 14 2012, 10:08 AM) *
Although not strictly acurate I sympathise with your observations.


Same.
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Biker1
post Jun 14 2012, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jun 14 2012, 10:08 AM) *
Although not strictly acurate I sympathise with your observations.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, while agreeing with this sentiment we are up against powerful lobbying organisations such as this so your views will more or less go unheard. sad.gif
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Bloggo
post Jun 14 2012, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jun 14 2012, 10:38 AM) *
Unfortunately, in my opinion, while agreeing with this sentiment we are up against powerful lobbying organisations such as this so your views will more or less go unheard. sad.gif

So no change there then. I don't think that there has ever been a government that represented me and for that matter many othere people I know.


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Andy Capp
post Jun 14 2012, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (andy1979uk @ Jun 14 2012, 09:28 AM) *
I see that the opposite way round, although VAT is unfair on the low paid. - Disagree VAT is a tax that everyone can pay, if you only tax income only the working contribute.

VAT is harder on the low paid because they pay the same as the wealthy. Only the very wealthy can mitigate their income tax.
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andy1979uk
post Jun 14 2012, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 14 2012, 10:54 AM) *
VAT is harder on the low paid because they pay the same as the wealthy. Only the very wealthy can mitigate their income tax.

Yes true, but the low paid get it back in the form of working tax credits.
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Bloggo
post Jun 14 2012, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jun 14 2012, 10:54 AM) *
VAT is harder on the low paid because they pay the same as the wealthy. Only the very wealthy can mitigate their income tax.

But that's life isn't it. There are always going to be people more wealthy than others and there is nothing wrong with that as the desire to make money and aspire to a better lifestyle is what drives industry, technology and commerce.
People have to recognise that they can't have everything they see and live within their means.


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