Immigration Options

[Jayjay]

Agree we should close our borders and only take the trades we need. I accept all races but get really peeved at injustice and prejudice. An illegal immigrant allowed to stay because he has a cat; soldiers coffins being booed, people marching for sharia law; NHS tourists; jobs only being given to non brits; job adverts for Polish speakers only; the millions it costs in translators at hospitals, courts etc.,

[user23]

When did anyone here say we should send 'them' all back?


So what did you mean? The insinuation was clear to me, even if you didn't write as much. BTW, I do think Nick Griffin is ignorant, or at least, snide.


Where did gel say or suggest that?

My point was, if we close our borders where are our are future doctors, dentists and sandwich makers going to come from? Don't say "our own people" because we'd have them from the indigenous population in the first place if that was the case.

No need to be so defensive and start suggesting I called people ignorant, I was just highlighting that the points of those that think like Mr Griffin don't generally add up. Generally statements along the lines of "Britain's rubbish, let's close the borders to stop all the immigrants coming and taking advantage of how good it is here" don't add up.

He suggested he knew they hadn't paid any tax, he must have asked them then to gain this information, mustn't he?

[Iommi]

I think few are advocating closing borders, what people are anxious about is that the population, in particular, immigration, is managed properly - at the moment it is not. What does stand out for me, is a lot more people feel strongly about this than one might imagine.

[regor]

I do wish people on here would stop talking about "managing population"

The only way that you can 'manage the population' is by methods such as enforced breeding/immigration where numbers are below optimum coupled with 'one child only' or/and 'compulsory sterilisation' or/and 'euthanasia of excess population groups' where there is an excess of population.

I do hope none of you are suggesting the implementation of any of these methods.

[Iommi]

I do wish people on here would stop talking about "managing population"

I won't speak for the rest, but I wrote managed immigration (not population); or the lack of it. By not having some kind of population policy, government is simply sticking their head in the sand.

The only way that you can 'manage the population' is by methods such as enforced breeding/immigration where numbers are below optimum coupled with 'one child only' or/and 'compulsory sterilisation' or/and 'euthanasia of excess population groups' where there is an excess of population. I do hope none of you are suggesting the implementation of any of these methods.

Managing is to ensure things are in place to cope and that we promote the need for skills where they are required. I don't know where you get the idea that the 'only way you can manage the population' is by the methods you describe. That's preposterous, notwithstanding against human rights.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

My point was, if we close our borders where are our are future doctors, dentists and sandwich makers going to come from? Don't say "our own people" because we'd have them from the indigenous population in the first place if that was the case.

No need to be so defensive and start suggesting I called people ignorant, I was just highlighting that the points of those that think like Mr Griffin don't generally add up. Generally statements along the lines of "Britain's rubbish, let's close the borders to stop all the immigrants coming and taking advantage of how good it is here" don't add up.

He suggested he knew they hadn't paid any tax, he must have asked them then to gain this information, mustn't he?

We have getting on for 70 million of us to fill the places of doctors, dentists (just HOW many people are at University at the moment - don't even get me started on that one..). As for Sandwich makers - perhaps some of the 5 million or so scroungers sitting on their fat ***** claiming benefits and watching (and appearing) on Jeremy Kyle might just be 'encouraged' to put two bits of bread together and earn a 'CRUST'!

And I do not favour Mr Griffins style of Politic by the way. I just think we can manage the situation much better, rather than giving up on a large section of our population as this Government has done.

[Andy1]

We have getting on for 70 million of us to fill the places of doctors, dentists (just HOW many people are at University at the moment - don't even get me started on that one..). As for Sandwich makers - perhaps some of the 5 million or so scroungers sitting on their fat ***** claiming benefits and watching (and appearing) on Jeremy Kyle might just be 'encouraged' to put two bits of bread together and earn a 'CRUST'!

And I do not favour Mr Griffins style of Politic by the way. I just think we can manage the situation much better, rather than giving up on a large section of our population as this Government has done.

I would much rather have someone who cares about themselves and therefore their work make my Sandwich thankyou

[Iommi]

I would much rather have someone who cares about themselves and therefore their work make my Sandwich thankyou

So that's what your last butler died of!

If only there was an element of 'when in Rome do as the Romans do', I don't think there would be such a fuss from some members of the 'indigenous' society!

[user23]

We have getting on for 70 million of us to fill the places of doctors, dentists (just HOW many people are at University at the moment - don't even get me started on that one..). As for Sandwich makers - perhaps some of the 5 million or so scroungers sitting on their fat ***** claiming benefits and watching (and appearing) on Jeremy Kyle might just be 'encouraged' to put two bits of bread together and earn a 'CRUST'!

And I do not favour Mr Griffins style of Politic by the way. I just think we can manage the situation much better, rather than giving up on a large section of our population as this Government has done.

"We have getting on for 70 million" is just "our own people" phrased differently.

What's your plan for getting more of "our own people" to become doctors and dentists?

[Iommi]

What's your plan for getting more of "our own people" to become doctors and dentists?

"Since 1997, however, the number of medical school places in Britain has almost doubled. There are now enough home-grown graduates to fill training posts, reducing or eliminating the need to import doctors. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle3321919.ece

Another point user23 and others seem to miss is what does it do to other countries having the best leave their home land? Is it ethical to not care how emigration affects the countries those people leave?

[On the edge]

Most medical courses are well over subscribed. Why don't we try market forces? Qualify a lot more Doctors - who would then command lower wages so there would be more to go round...Doctors I know don't like this solution.

[user23]

"Since 1997, however, the number of medical school places in Britain has almost doubled. There are now enough home-grown graduates to fill training posts, reducing or eliminating the need to import doctors. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle3321919.ece

Another point user23 and others seem to miss is what does it do to other countries having the best leave their home land? Is it ethical to not care how emigration affects the countries those people leave?

You raise a good point. There are enough graduates but due to emigration to countries where they're valued more there aren't enough to fill all the posts in the UK, hence having to import doctors and dentists.

What's your plan to solve this? Paying them more is not an option by the way as you'll annoy the "we're already taxed too much" and "private health care costs too much in rip-off Britain" lobby.

Most medical courses are well over subscribed. Why don't we try market forces? Qualify a lot more Doctors - who would then command lower wages so there would be more to go round...Doctors I know don't like this solution.

Thus reducing the standard of doctors in this country and ensuring more of the good ones emigrate. Not a great plan.

[On the edge]

You raise a good point. There are enough graduates but due to emigration to countries where they're valued more there aren't enough to fill all the posts in the UK, hence having to import doctors and dentists.

What's your plan to solve this? Paying them more is not an option by the way as you'll annoy the "we're already taxed too much" and "private health care costs too much in rip-off Britain" lobby.Thus reducing the standard of doctors in this country and ensuring more of the good ones emigrate. Not a great plan.

I haven't said reducing standards, as Adam Smith pointed out, in these circumstances standards and pay aren't connecred.

[Iommi]

You raise a good point. There are enough graduates but due to emigration to countries where they're valued more there aren't enough to fill all the posts in the UK, hence having to import doctors and dentists.

That isn't what the article (if you read it) says. There is enough coming through, we don't have to import.

What's your plan to solve this? Paying them more is not an option by the way as you'll annoy the "we're already taxed too much" and "private health care costs too much in rip-off Britain" lobby.

As you demonstrably misrepresented the original point, this passage is redundant.

Thus reducing the standard of doctors in this country and ensuring more of the good ones emigrate. Not a great plan.

We do lose some to good hospitals else where, but we are only looking at this from one angle. One needs also to find solutions to reduce the need for doctors and this is happening already. NHS direct and better health awareness, etc.

At the end of the day, the 'we need immigration to float the health service' is an old argument that isn't quite the case any more. AND you seem to ignore another often over-looked point - is it ethical to 'drain' poor countries of their best doctors and nurses, etc?

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Perhaps User 23 is in Ostrich mode and cannot see beyond immigration being the resolution of all Britains ills.

We have some estates in this Country where 49% of the population of that estate is on incapacity benefit. 49%???? WTF............

For some British people benefits are a way of life. I even heard one Labour MP talking about young teenage girls that had become pregnant explain that it was a 'Career Choice' and it was up to them.

So what they are saying is that if you are a 14 year old girl from a rough estate whats the best option....

Option 1) School / College / University / Debt / Flog your guts out at work for 10 to 15 years. Buy a house.

Option 2) Legs akimbo. House.

I know this is getting away from the original discussion but it is part of the overall problem. Labours Justification for mass immigration is the lack of morals and workshy attitiude of large swathes of Britains that rely on benefits.

[Biker1]

Population to hit 74M

[user23]

I haven't said reducing standards, as Adam Smith pointed out, in these circumstances standards and pay aren't connecred.

I have. If we pay doctors less the good ones are more likely to go abroad to places where they're paid more, thus reducing standards here.

Perhaps User 23 is in Ostrich mode and cannot see beyond immigration being the resolution of all Britains ills.

We have some estates in this Country where 49% of the population of that estate is on incapacity benefit. 49%???? WTF............

Are you suggesting the bulk are all "scrounging immigrants" or that we can train 49% of council estate residents up to be doctors and dentists?

[Iommi]

I have. If we pay doctors less the good ones are more likely to go abroad to places where they're paid more, thus reducing standards here.

Or just go to the private sector? In any case, all Doctor's here have to reach a minimum standard which I'm happy to accept. Not quite so easy to 'vet' immigrants though.

Are you suggesting the bulk are all "scrounging immigrants"?

Unless you have just taken a very strong 'thick' pill, surely you don't really believe that's what he meant? Or are you just trying to deflect attention from your specious arguments?

[user23]

Or just go to the private sector? In any case, all Doctor's here have to reach a minimum standard which I'm happy to accept. Not quite so easy to 'vet' immigrants though.


Unless you have just taken a very strong 'thick' pill, surely you don't really believe that's what he meant? Or are you just trying to deflect attention from your specious arguments?

I was just pointing out he seems to be off on an off topic sprint down the right wing and it might not be long before we encounter "..and another thing, all them Darkies..".

[On the edge]

I have. If we pay doctors less the good ones are more likely to go abroad to places where they're paid more, thus reducing standards here.Are you suggesting the bulk are all "scrounging immigrants" or that we can train 49% of council estate residents up to be doctors and dentists?

Whilst there is a little truth in that, they wouldn't all go. This was exactly the same excuse the city banks and finance people used to pay at such stupid rates. Even at top wack - I didn't see any foreign firms in the queue for Fred Goodwin!