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> Apologise? Apologise for what exactly?
x2lls
post Aug 8 2018, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Aug 8 2018, 11:46 PM) *
The luvvies in the BBC may be baying for his blood, and the Guardian readers and sandal wearers and the 'faux shocked' and the Islamic hate preacher may be demanding action, but from a purely personal view I have to say I don't want to see the burka in the streets of Newbury.

It has already become a common item of dress in many areas of this country. In fact in some areas it doesn't even warrant a second glance. Birmingham, Bradford, virtually every London Borough, even parts of Reading. But last week I was driving along the A4 through Thatcham and walking along past the Sainsbury convenience store was a women in full black burka. So out of place and, if I'm honest, so unwelcome.

What does that say about me? I already know I'm religiously intolerant as I close the door on the Jehovah's Witnesses when they come a'knockin'. There's just something sinister about the burka that I don't want in my country. In my neighbourhood even.

Would I feel the same about a family of Amish moving in next door, with their odd dress sense and their quaint modes of transport? Maybe, but at least you can ask the Amish neighbour to help you knock together a garden shed and know they'll be round in a flash with hammers, saws and a whole bunch of willing hands.

Would the people crying out in support of wearing the burka TRUTHFULLY feel the same way if they had neighbours moving in next door who were following this particular practice when showing their faith? In Newbury I mean. I mean really welcome them. Newres included. A knock on the door if you decided to have a Sunday morning fry-up and allowed the waft of sizzling bacon to leak from your kitchen into their airspace?


I don't disagree.

Gets popcorn rolleyes.gif


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spartacus
post Aug 8 2018, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 12:15 AM) *
Gets popcorn rolleyes.gif
.... about time we swapped the popcorn for a bag of pork scratchings when we discuss this topic.
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newres
post Aug 9 2018, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Aug 8 2018, 11:46 PM) *
The luvvies in the BBC may be baying for his blood, and the Guardian readers and sandal wearers and the 'faux shocked' and the Islamic hate preacher may be demanding action, but from a purely personal view I have to say I don't want to see the burka in the streets of Newbury.

It has already become a common item of dress in many areas of this country. In fact in some areas it doesn't even warrant a second glance. Birmingham, Bradford, virtually every London Borough, even parts of Reading. But last week I was driving along the A4 through Thatcham and walking along past the Sainsbury convenience store was a women in full black burka. So out of place and, if I'm honest, so unwelcome.

What does that say about me? I already know I'm religiously intolerant as I close the door on the Jehovah's Witnesses when they come a'knockin'. There's just something sinister about the burka that I don't want in my country. In my neighbourhood even.

Would I feel the same about a family of Amish moving in next door, with their odd dress sense and their quaint modes of transport? Maybe, but at least you can ask the Amish neighbour to help you knock together a garden shed and know they'll be round in a flash with hammers, saws and a whole bunch of willing hands.

Would the people crying out in support of wearing the burka TRUTHFULLY feel the same way if they had neighbours moving in next door who were following this particular practice when showing their faith? In Newbury I mean. I mean really welcome them. Newres included. A knock on the door if you decided to have a Sunday morning fry-up and allowed the waft of sizzling bacon to leak from your kitchen into their airspace?

To be honest I find chavs in Tescoís in their pyjamas more offensive. Or their boyfriends displaying their undercrackers, but I wouldnít ban them.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Aug 9 2018, 05:02 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Aug 9 2018, 12:44 AM) *
.... about time we swapped the popcorn for a bag of pork scratchings when we discuss this topic.

One of my black friends at work is called "coconut" when he visits his father in Ghana just because he has a British accent...

Newres and the like love to get enragred by what they perceive to be racism on behalf of others. Bless them.
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newres
post Aug 9 2018, 07:22 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 9 2018, 06:02 AM) *
One of my black friends at work is called "coconut" when he visits his father in Ghana just because he has a British accent...

Newres and the like love to get enragred by what they perceive to be racism on behalf of others. Bless them.

But is that like the "n" word though? When it's ok for a black person to use it, but not a white person? I confess I don't get that by the way.
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x2lls
post Aug 9 2018, 09:38 AM
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If you can call Catholic nuns "penguins", then you can poke fun at burka wearers. Welcome to the Free West. We make fun of everyone.


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Strafin
post Aug 9 2018, 12:21 PM
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In my opinion the problem with Boris is that he is a senior politician, representing our country and our government. If he is against the Burka then that's his position and fair enough. But he should be able to engage his opponents through interest and reasoned debate, he should have a level of understanding for other views, and he should be able to say what he means without pi55ing off thousands of people. Basic skills.
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On the edge
post Aug 9 2018, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 9 2018, 01:21 PM) *
In my opinion the problem with Boris is that he is a senior politician, representing our country and our government. If he is against the Burka then that's his position and fair enough. But he should be able to engage his opponents through interest and reasoned debate, he should have a level of understanding for other views, and he should be able to say what he means without pi55ing off thousands of people. Basic skills.


Thatís exactly the issue. You canít say anything today without offending someone no matter how good your skills.

Has anyone spared a thought for those who are genuinely offended by people wearing these things? Or is that another group that doesnít count these days?


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SirWilliam
post Aug 9 2018, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 10:38 AM) *
If you can call Catholic nuns "penguins", then you can poke fun at burka wearers. Welcome to the Free West. We make fun of everyone.


Reminds me of an incident 50 odd years ago while walking with my 3 year old daughter we met a couple of nuns en route, " look daddy penguins". Oh how I wished the ground had opened up but they laughed it off and all was well. One wonders what the outcome would have been had it been a burka wearer?


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x2lls
post Aug 9 2018, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 9 2018, 01:21 PM) *
In my opinion the problem with Boris is that he is a senior politician, representing our country and our government. If he is against the Burka then that's his position and fair enough. But he should be able to engage his opponents through interest and reasoned debate, he should have a level of understanding for other views, and he should be able to say what he means without pi55ing off thousands of people. Basic skills.


That is impossible, considering there are millions of us who have our own views.
That is an assumption that pi55ing off thousands of people is somehow wrong, it isn't, they are a minority. Check out the various polls online.
Where are their basic skills that stop them from pearl clutching every five minutes when someone says something they don't like?

"interest and reasoned debate" has failed miserably. We will only see that when the likes of Antifa start taking off their masks and start to use their brains, not that I'm waiting. This government, the opposition and the House of Lords are increasingly being isolated, sorry, isolating themselves from a huge proportion of the BRITISH public. All they come up with is virtue signalling rubbish, and many more are now seeing it for what it is, rubbish.

More messenger shooting.


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Strafin
post Aug 9 2018, 03:43 PM
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I don't think it is messenger shooting. I think he's been hugely incompetent again, and has a long history of upsetting people. In this instance you don't care about the group being insulted, in fact you're against them so the impact for you doesn't exist. I don't disagree with Boris, but I don't like his methods, and previously his gaffes has cost people dearly, for example that lady imprisoned in Iran.
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newres
post Aug 9 2018, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 10:38 AM) *
If you can call Catholic nuns "penguins", then you can poke fun at burka wearers. Welcome to the Free West. We make fun of everyone.

When was the last time a foreign secretary referred to a nun as a penguin? Iíve only ever heard that oce. On Blues Brothers. And Iím a catholic.
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newres
post Aug 9 2018, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 9 2018, 01:46 PM) *
Thatís exactly the issue. You canít say anything today without offending someone no matter how good your skills.

Has anyone spared a thought for those who are genuinely offended by people wearing these things? Or is that another group that doesnít count these days?

How on earth can any normal person be offended by the dress of another unless they have a hatred for the wearer. And therein I think lies the problem.
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x2lls
post Aug 9 2018, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 04:56 PM) *
When was the last time a foreign secretary referred to a nun as a penguin? Iíve only ever heard that oce. On Blues Brothers. And Iím a catholic.



The clue is in "If you can".


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newres
post Aug 9 2018, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 05:01 PM) *
The clue is in "If you can".

Well Iíd be staggered if a member of the government referred to a nun as a penguin. It makes me laugh at how people like you moan about our culture being ruined by immigrants yet you donít see that for a person of high office to insult members of our population is totally alien to our culture.
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Turin Machine
post Aug 9 2018, 05:37 PM
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Things to note;

It's not a religious issue in any way.

it wasn't an 'outburst'.

Bo Jo doesn't support a ban.

People wearing it do look stupid.

Its a security issue as well.

It's men forcing women to wear them.


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Turin Machine
post Aug 9 2018, 05:44 PM
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Allegedly; The reason women must cover themselves is so they do not seduce a man.

So then; If a man catches a glimpse of her ankle, and he becomes seduced, then he isn't responsible for his actions. He might rape her, accidentally of course, and it'd all be her fault. Traitorous, adulterous witch. She should've covered herself up! That poor guy! She seduced him. She must be punished.

You can see where I'm going with this, right?

The burka is not a religeous garment. It is a gender enslavement tool, and 100% away from what our country has been fighting to overcome for the last 100 years.

But here's the rub: We agreed that a woman should be allowed to wear whatever she likes, right? So if she wants to cover herself from head to toe, we have to let her!

Now why would she want to do that?

Well, since a woman isn't trying to seduce anybody while out buying her dhania, atta and haldi then she won't mind covering herself, particularly as she's already married. After all, who needs to see her anyway? Only her husband has any interest in being attracted to her, so it should be 'no skin of anyone's nose', right? Why do you even want to look at this man's wife anyway. She's private property.

So ... this leaves us with a dillema:

Either we must enforce our belief that a woman should be allowed to express herself any way she chooses. This will mean accepting the burka as a fashion garment, and a legitimate choice of self-expression. This means we'll have to ignore the surrepticious gender/social constrictions to the women involved.

Or we must accept we were wrong, and that some clothing really isn't suitable or acceptable. Bikinis, miniskirts and hot-pants might well fall into this category. Which means we might have been wrong all along! Maybe these burka people have a point? Then we're forced to adopt it.

There are no winners in this. Somehow the logic betrays us. And now we see why religeous fanaticism has such a firm grip in the 21st century. The control methods run so deep they're practically invisible.

So if anyone can unpick that little thorn-in-the-side-of-equality, because I can't see a route out. I think the burka is here to stay, because our liberal society prevents us from enforcing liberation. Thus, these women will remain victims to a regime which is beyond criticism, and the controlling behaviour this silly garment permits will remain unspoken.


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On the edge
post Aug 9 2018, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 04:58 PM) *
How on earth can any normal person be offended by the dress of another unless they have a hatred for the wearer. And therein I think lies the problem.


Of course I don't hate the person, I feel it's offensive and actually very rude for people to deliberately keep their faces covered in public and in particular when transacting with others. It's not something our society had ever condoned.

Taking your twisted example. In the UK people do not hold the physical national flag as any more than material. Try doing that in the States, where by your reconing Americans must hate people who burn or deface their flag.



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On the edge
post Aug 9 2018, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 05:39 PM) *
Well Iíd be staggered if a member of the government referred to a nun as a penguin. It makes me laugh at how people like you moan about our culture being ruined by immigrants yet you donít see that for a person of high office to insult members of our population is totally alien to our culture.


Err, in many other areas, it's quite common for persons of high office to insult members of our population. Been going on for years. Nye Bevan called Tories less than Vermin, then we had the attacks on the unemployed and trades unionists in the Thatcher years, I'm sure we can all come up with examples.


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On the edge
post Aug 9 2018, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 9 2018, 06:44 PM) *
Allegedly; The reason women must cover themselves is so they do not seduce a man.

So then; If a man catches a glimpse of her ankle, and he becomes seduced, then he isn't responsible for his actions. He might rape her, accidentally of course, and it'd all be her fault. Traitorous, adulterous witch. She should've covered herself up! That poor guy! She seduced him. She must be punished.

You can see where I'm going with this, right?

The burka is not a religeous garment. It is a gender enslavement tool, and 100% away from what our country has been fighting to overcome for the last 100 years.

But here's the rub: We agreed that a woman should be allowed to wear whatever she likes, right? So if she wants to cover herself from head to toe, we have to let her!

Now why would she want to do that?

Well, since a woman isn't trying to seduce anybody while out buying her dhania, atta and haldi then she won't mind covering herself, particularly as she's already married. After all, who needs to see her anyway? Only her husband has any interest in being attracted to her, so it should be 'no skin of anyone's nose', right? Why do you even want to look at this man's wife anyway. She's private property.

So ... this leaves us with a dillema:

Either we must enforce our belief that a woman should be allowed to express herself any way she chooses. This will mean accepting the burka as a fashion garment, and a legitimate choice of self-expression. This means we'll have to ignore the surrepticious gender/social constrictions to the women involved.

Or we must accept we were wrong, and that some clothing really isn't suitable or acceptable. Bikinis, miniskirts and hot-pants might well fall into this category. Which means we might have been wrong all along! Maybe these burka people have a point? Then we're forced to adopt it.

There are no winners in this. Somehow the logic betrays us. And now we see why religeous fanaticism has such a firm grip in the 21st century. The control methods run so deep they're practically invisible.

So if anyone can unpick that little thorn-in-the-side-of-equality, because I can't see a route out. I think the burka is here to stay, because our liberal society prevents us from enforcing liberation. Thus, these women will remain victims to a regime which is beyond criticism, and the controlling behaviour this silly garment permits will remain unspoken.


Dint think anyone much would object to the dress other than the face cover. Eliminate that as other EU nation states have and that solves the problem. I can't remember this fuss being made when the same disquiet was voiced about full face hoodies?


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