Turner painting of Donnington to be auctioned, when is a Turner not a Turner? Options

[Andy Capp]

I'm wondering if JMW Turner painted the original that Dreweatts are selling today, and that the print from an engraving made my William and Letitia Byrne that's in the Government Art Collection is made from that JMW Turner original and erroneously attributed to William Turner of Oxford by the engravers.

That is what it looks like to me...now.

[IanB]

Interesting speculation.

If there is an error somewhere, I also notice the same has happened with another of JMW Turner's watercolour pieces.

'Newbury, from Speen Hill' circa 1805 is listed on the Tate Collection here:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cg...p;searchid=9289

It is also attributed to a 'William Turner (of Oxford)', having also been engraved by William Byrne here:

http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj=20238

Interestingly, both this and the Donnington Castle lot were purchased at Sotheby's 22nd February 1977...

[Simon Kirby]

Interesting speculation.

If there is an error somewhere, I also notice the same has happened with another of JMW Turner's watercolour pieces.

'Newbury, from Speen Hill' circa 1805 is listed on the Tate Collection here:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cg...p;searchid=9289

It is also attributed to a 'William Turner (of Oxford)', having also been engraved by William Byrne here:

http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj=20238

Interestingly, both this and the Donnington Castle lot were purchased at Sotheby's 22nd February 1977...

Yes, here's an engraving of the same original attributed to JMW Turner.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

There is always the possibility that someone, somewhere has been sold a pup.

[Andy Capp]

Interesting speculation.

If there is an error somewhere, I also notice the same has happened with another of JMW Turner's watercolour pieces.

'Newbury, from Speen Hill' circa 1805 is listed on the Tate Collection here:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cg...p;searchid=9289

It is also attributed to a 'William Turner (of Oxford)', having also been engraved by William Byrne here:

http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj=20238

Interestingly, both this and the Donnington Castle lot were purchased at Sotheby's 22nd February 1977...

It seems to me more of a Turner of Oxford plagiarising than anything else. Or at least the owners of the art.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

Stand down.

It didn't sell.

That it was a Turner there is no doubt. Which Turner however, seems still to be a bit of a problem. (doubt if it was Tina though).

[Nothing Much]

Bit of excitement there.
I thought I would mention how easy it is to make a faux attribution.

J-F Millet (the french chap from Barbizon) had a large family who it seems all became artists.
I bought an LP a long time ago because of the cover picture.It was Songs of the Auverne.
The cover was a scene of sheep walking up a path. I played it a few times (Philistine ....Moi?)

Credits were given to the Bridgeman art collection for the use of the Jean Francois Millet.
Only it wasn't him. I know because I have a watercolour by his less smart brother.
Jean Baptiste Millet. Sometimes J-Bapt. Millet. That cover and my picture have the same signature.

The picture I bought came from Highclere in 1968, for £6.00 is now worth about £1000.00.
If it had been J-F it would not be on my wall anymore! It had been through Christie's at some stage
as there is a sticker on the back.

[Nothing Much]

Sorry . Silly repeat posting

[Simon Kirby]

I've received a very nice response from the Government Art Collection which I'm sure they won't mind me sharing with you:

Dear Simon

Many thanks for pointing this out - you are of course entirely correct. The lettering states the artist as “W. Turner R.A”, i.e. JMW Turner not Turner of Oxford (he wasn’t an RA). So not the engraver’s error, but rather ours in this case! I will make the appropriate corrections, although it may be a little while before it feeds through to the website.

Best wishes
Roger Golding
Government Art Collection, UK

Andy Capp, I hope there is some possibility of you getting a print of the original, and how cool that, that JMW Turner painted Donnington Castle.

[Andy Capp]

Andy Capp, I hope there is some possibility of you getting a print of the original, and how cool that, that JMW Turner painted Donnington Castle.

Thanks for doing that. As the conversation went on, that is how it looked to me; that the reference to Turner of Oxford was the error, rather than the watercolour (Dreweatts stated that authenticity was made by Sotherby's).

It seems JMW Turner RA painted plenty of water colours, but fewer oils, so hence the difference in recognition and value (I thought £40 to £60k to be too low at first). While sometimes technically flawed, he has painted some magnificent art. 'Donnington Castle' isn't amongst his best, but it does contain elements that he is recognised for, including people relaxing in the midday sun.

'Sun is God' were alleged to be his dying words.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

So all we have to do now is get the picture of the Castle in Shropshire properly labeled and job's a good'un.