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Posted by: Bill1 Jun 29 2009, 04:50 PM

This almost beggars belief.

I was walking past St Nicholas's Church at about 4pm and two girls of about 14 in their St Barts uniforms were sitting there and as I walked past one said to the other deliberately loud enough for me to hear "I shaved my pubes today".

The shock made me half glance, but saw them giggling so kept a straight face and walked on without looking round.

Now, I can see how at that age they might think that to do that was funny and maybe even daring and it takes a lot to embarass me. What worried me is if they played their little prank in front of the wrong sort it could lead them into danger.

Posted by: GMR Jun 29 2009, 06:30 PM

I think that was called equality, however I do agree with you. I would love to see what homes they come from.

Posted by: Strafin Jun 29 2009, 09:10 PM

Phwoooar me too! (Joking)

Posted by: GMR Jun 29 2009, 09:57 PM

Posted by: Iommi Jun 29 2009, 10:36 PM

I did think that Bill1 was perhaps a little candid with his anecdote and GMR might have worded his post differently, but I'm unsure if this is the right thread and subject to make a joke of this nature.

Posted by: GMR Jun 29 2009, 10:45 PM

I didn't word my post poorly... you just didn't understand my post(s). I just had my tongue-in-my-cheek. Maybe I should put an explanation in my posts just for you.

I would image you are somebody who has trouble with the English language and its humour. I am not criticising you for that; just saying I understand. I presume you are an immigrant? If there is anything I can do to help then please don’t hesitate to ask. I will gladly explain my posts to you.... we all help each other out on here if we can.

Posted by: Iommi Jun 29 2009, 11:34 PM

My comprehension is sound, your posts, however, are sometimes poorly written and therefore, ambiguous. Strafin exploited your ambiguous text in a way which I could see coming. Indeed, I was going to suggest you reword it.


I have as much difficulty as anyone has and will always go back and correct where I see an error. As for humour, that is subjective, but generally I find your attempts at humour are often self-indulgent, puerile and often just simply unfunny, but that is just my opinion.


You understand very little it seems.


Born and breed in Newbury.


Your OP was, 'I think that was called equality, however I do agree with you. I would love to see what homes they come from.'

For starters Bill1's OP was nothing to do with equality, so I see no relevance in that point. The section that reads, 'I would love to see what homes they come from', is ambiguous.

You would love to know where these 14 year old girls live, why would that be? Or, as I suspect, what you meant to say was, 'It would be interesting to know what their domestic background is like'. In other words, how they are being parented.

Now the insinuation in Strafin's post is one of suggesting you have an infatuation with young girls. This isn't something I would say I'd like to endorse with laughing emoticons.

My post wasn't a slur on your post as such, except to say that it was ambiguous, but that I didn't see the exchange you had with Strafin as being a healthy one a public forum.

Posted by: GMR Jun 29 2009, 11:38 PM

I think Bill will agree with you as he seems to be your shadow. I do find that you have trouble wording certain posts and I try to make allowances for them.

You also read Strafin wrong as I understood exactly what he said/ meant.

If you have any trouble in future please don't hesitate to ask and I will do my best to explain.

Posted by: Iommi Jun 29 2009, 11:44 PM

Well, here's one for starters, explain where I have gone wrong with my comprehension on this thread then?

As for the Bill1 point, so someone who has a similar point of view to mine, is suddenly my shadow describes early onset paranoia I suggest.

PS - If you see what you perceive as poorly worded posts from me, please point them out and explain why, I'd rather you don't make allowances. I won't when I see you write some of your guff which I disagree with.

Posted by: GMR Jun 29 2009, 11:53 PM

I think it is the lack of ability to differentiate between humour and seriousness.



It is not me who is paranoid my friend but you; you seem to follow me around the board just to make snide remarks. Obviously you feel intimidated and paranoid by my presence. Probably a lack of self-esteem.



I don’t think it is a case of pointing things out but being annoying; which you are. But that doesn’t surprise me as I know who you are.

Posted by: Iommi Jun 30 2009, 12:07 AM

What are you talking about, elucidate, please demonstrate where I have done this?


I think you have just proven my point. I make a comment about the quality of a post of yours and now Iam stalking you! I can assure you I would be delighted if you stopped posting here and I can promise I wouldn't go looking for you.


Annoying? You and me both. I think it is more likely you make vacuous points and fail to support them when they come under scrutiny, as I did on this thread.

I thought yours and Starfin's posts were inappropriate and I had a legitimate reason to post as I did, it is you that, yet again, turns it into a childish squabble rather than refute my argument.

PS - Don't refer to me as a friend, I don't know you.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 12:15 AM

I know you my friend.

I think you are what some people call a cyber stalker. You are the only one who has shown obsessive tendencies towards my posts. I have been writing for years and you are the only one who has popped up like an annoying itch just to be irritating.

You carry on my friend if that is what gives you your kicks. I won’t be going anywhere.

All the best,

Glenn

Posted by: Iommi Jun 30 2009, 12:29 AM

Beyond cyberspace? In any case, I don't know you, so the point still stands. Friendship should be mutual.


I only criticise where I disagree AND where you have not made sense. I am not sitting and waiting for you to write. So I repeat, I think you and Starfin's posts were in poor taste and I had a right to say so. This was born out of your post that was ambiguous.


I can assure you I am not doing this to just be annoying. You post with such frequency, I'd be never able to keep up.


More's the pity, but I don't argue for kicks, I'd just rather you would support your point of view better instead of just repeatedly patronising me. I note it is you that over reacts to any point where I challenge what you say.

Why can't you just refute my claims with rational argument, rather than insult me? This thread could be your first opportunity, so please explain why you think I have misunderstood your 'jokes' on this thread and indeed, is not in poor taste?

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 12:38 AM

Hi my friend,

This is what I mean about obsessive behaviour. Also your arguments don’t hold up well about wanting to correct peoples “mistakes” as you’ve ignored quite a few people on here who have made some howlers. I’ve been getting quite a few PM’s from members concerned with your fixation towards me.

It is not just me observing your behaviour my friend, but other members who are showing concern over your actions. I suggest you back off and leave well alone before somebody makes a complaint against you. These forums are good boards and it doesn’t want somebody like you spoiling them.

All the best to you my friend,

Glenn

Posted by: Iommi Jun 30 2009, 12:42 AM

Lets just remind ourselves of the horrendous personal attack that I have made on you that was so deserving of your response!

QUOTE (GMR @ Jun 29 2009, 10:57 PM)

QUOTE (Strafin @ Jun 29 2009, 10:10 PM)

Phwoooar me too! (Joking)

I did think that Bill1 was perhaps a little candid with his anecdote and GMR probably worded his post poorly, but I'm unsure if this is the right thread and subject to make a joke of this nature.

So it is clear that you cannot refute or apologise for the tone of the 'jokes' and what you find funny. It ends here then.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 12:43 AM

I hope it ends here because you are becoming a nuisance and an obsessive. I won't reply to you if you leave me alone.

All the best,

Glenn

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 07:27 AM

Any chance of getting back to the SERIOUS point I was trying to make?

ps I am nobody's "shadow".

pps Do not try to change my mind on this.

Posted by: AmieB Jun 30 2009, 08:09 AM

I am sat here laughing at these 2 squabbling like girls - are you sure it wasn't GMR and Iommi sat on the bench Bill....?

Posted by: AmieB Jun 30 2009, 08:20 AM

I dont think there 'home life' has anything to do with what they said. Its just 2 schoolgirls being silly and immature.

2 schoolgirls were shouting at a pakistani couple the other day. Being racist. Showing off to each other I think. In the end I went over and told them to get lost and grow up (i can not stand bullying), they went to argue with me back and someone else came over and told them to go away too. The scuttled off with the heads hanged low.

2 different situations but just shows what schoolgirls are like......

Posted by: Simon Jun 30 2009, 08:24 AM

This is a very entertaining thread, i have been laughing out loud at work reading this. Keep up the good work my friends

Posted by: Andrea Jun 30 2009, 08:31 AM

Good one Amie

I don't really mind when youths are being immature and making jokes. I'd rather they did that then go out drinking and doing drugs, which I unfortunately see a lot of youths doing. Although I see your original point... it can be dangerous if they were to make that joke around someone who wouldn't have just walked away like you had...

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 08:33 AM

Sorry GMR but I don't get this post either. What has equality got to do with Bill1's original post? and why were you calling Iommi an immigrant?

Posted by: Strafin Jun 30 2009, 08:45 AM

[quote name='Iommi' date='Jun 30 2009, 01:42 AM' post='1751']
I did think that Bill1 was perhaps a little candid with his anecdote and GMR probably worded his post poorly, but I'm unsure if this is the right thread and subject to make a joke of this nature. [/color]

I understand if people didn't think my joke was a) funny or appropriate. You will notice that I tacked on the bit about joking, just to malke sure I wasn't lynched, suggesting I knew it was risky. However I could be a 14 year old boy, in which case it would be entirely different I think. I'm not but before everyone starts throwing around accusations, insults, and interpretations, just think a bit about whether you would react the same if the conversation was verbal.

Posted by: Strafin Jun 30 2009, 08:46 AM

I know also that you are supposed to be 18 to register on these boards, that doesn't mean everybody is though...

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:00 AM

We try our best to entertain

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 09:09 AM

[quote name='Strafin' date='Jun 30 2009, 09:45 AM' post='1763']
[quote name='Iommi' date='Jun 30 2009, 01:42 AM' post='1751']
I did think that Bill1 was perhaps a little candid with his anecdote and GMR probably worded his post poorly, but I'm unsure if this is the right thread and subject to make a joke of this nature. [/color]

I understand if people didn't think my joke was a) funny or appropriate. You will notice that I tacked on the bit about joking, just to malke sure I wasn't lynched, suggesting I knew it was risky. However I could be a 14 year old boy, in which case it would be entirely different I think. I'm not but before everyone starts throwing around accusations, insults, and interpretations, just think a bit about whether you would react the same if the conversation was verbal.


I understood perfectly what you meant.


In an equal society little girls should be allowed to be as smutty as little boys.

Posted by: Bloggo Jun 30 2009, 09:11 AM

Haven't some of you missed the point of the original post above and been diverted by personal attacks on each other.
The point being made above is yet another demonstration of inappropriate behaviour which points to an over liberal up-bringing and a total lack of respect for others

Posted by: JeffG Jun 30 2009, 09:11 AM

Yes, but it's not ladylike, is it?

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:17 AM

Hi Gumbo,

Let me explain. At least your reply and request is more intelligent than our friends (i.e. how he put it).

A couple of years ago there was a report in the paper that said “this is the price for equality”. Teenage girls behaving like boy yobs; i.e. the girls’ comments as Bill stated. The article went on and said about the homes that these young people come from. I then went on and agreed with him and ended my post with “I would like to see what homes they come from.” My reply was sort of tongue-in-cheek, but series at the same time. Many people understand what I was saying, however, maybe I should have worded it better for those that didn’t recognize what I was saying.

As for the “immigrant” remark. It wasn’t meant as anything nasty. Iommi has been following me around the boards nitpicking everything I said. I even requested to him that maybe he should leave my posts alone if he can’t say anything constructive and stop being annoying. I came to the conclusion that he was either a stalker/ or just a pain in the backside. Then I thought about it a bit more and thought that maybe he wasn’t any of those things but somebody who had difficulty understanding the ways people write; with humour/ irony etc. It was the same time that I received a couple of PM’s from people saying that I should consider his lack of understanding because he might be an “immigrant”. Maybe I should have used another term; if the use of that word was wrong then I apologise.

I hope that explains my original post and my other comments? If not please come back to me.

All the best my friend,

Glenn

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:18 AM

Good post Strafin and well said.

Posted by: Darren Jun 30 2009, 09:19 AM

Take a quick walk through town at any time and you'll soon find that the term "ladylike" is almost totally lost on the under 30's.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:19 AM

No it wasn't and whatever sex said it, it was wrong.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:21 AM

I totally agree. I brought my kids up on my own and they would never behave like that. I taught them to respect people.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 09:23 AM

You should say Childlike - ladies have every right to be as naughty as gentlemen. Have you not read your Jilly Cooper?

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 09:23 AM

Ok thanks. Didn't read the equality piece but now understand what you meant.

I always thought of Iommi as a she. Not sure he/she is stalking you, I just get the impression you two are total opposites and you know what they say about opposites

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:23 AM

It is a case of can, but shouldn't be like that if those kids were brought up properly.

Posted by: Bloggo Jun 30 2009, 09:23 AM

Good for you mate. Pity there aren't more like you in this town.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 09:26 AM

Maybe if they'd been a little more Two Ronnies / Jannet & John? Something along the lines of having to trim a bush?

Posted by: JeffG Jun 30 2009, 09:26 AM

Yes, agreed - my post was more ironic than anything else.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:30 AM

Thank you for your reply,

I agree with your prognosis, however, if that is the case then shouldn't one not pester the other if they request it? I have totally ignored his/ her post so that no conflict would arise; i.e. bring these boards into disrepute. But he/ she persisted in nitpicking everything I say. You put your request intelligently, he/ she just came in and said I “worded it badly” instead of asking what I meant, as you did. Adding the other posts that this person replied to me over then one can either draw the conclusion that they don’t have the ability to understand (doesn’t know how to put things properly) or their intentions are something more sinister. You must draw your own conclusions.

Regards,

Glenn

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 09:31 AM

Yes, I see what you are saying.

Posted by: AmieB Jun 30 2009, 09:34 AM

Cheers Darren

Posted by: Darren Jun 30 2009, 09:38 AM

I did say almost...

Posted by: Iommi Jun 30 2009, 10:23 AM

GMR - Will you shut up about me, I've done the decent thing, now you fulfil your side of the bargain?

Posted by: JMH Jun 30 2009, 10:29 AM

I found it that way initially, but think maybe it's time Tommi and GMR donned gloves and met face to face!

Time and venue to be published on this forum in due course, all forum members welcome!

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 10:37 AM

Will there be an entrance fee?

Posted by: Iommi Jun 30 2009, 11:58 AM

I'll be happy to do it for free, I wouldn't need long.

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jun 30 2009, 12:06 PM

I thought i would add to this... After skimming through the pages on this thread, i was glad because my god everyone talks rubbish (it could be funny but i didnt read it all), topic here is about young girls shaving their pubes... I'm also tempted to do so because its been a while. I might just say this outloud so everyone can here, if thats okay with everyone?

Posted by: JMH Jun 30 2009, 12:12 PM

Isn't that what they call fighting talk?

One can only assume now that Gumbo's intuition (and I have to say mine too) that Iommi was of the female variety looks to be incorrect - hardly ladylike talk either!

Posted by: Bloggo Jun 30 2009, 12:15 PM

Why don't you wax yours.

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 12:20 PM

That is normally done by males to make their schlong appear longer.......I have no need for such cosmetic tricks but you crack on wee man

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 12:23 PM

Oh and I think you will find the original meaning of this thread was vulgarity of the youth of today, well done for reaffirming that stereotype.

Posted by: AmieB Jun 30 2009, 12:25 PM

Time and dates please, i need to see this....!

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jun 30 2009, 12:32 PM

I should know that



and your right, i do apologise.



I've got the shaver out ready...

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 12:47 PM

Sorry Iommi but it had to be quoted word for word to have the desired impact, although reading some of the drivel (I said "some" ) I'm not sure that worked.

Posted by: Iommi Jun 30 2009, 12:53 PM

I understand, my only regret was that some might turn this into a joke. I will say though, I think the language from the girls you describe has possibly been amongst us for a lot longer than we would care to admit. I think as we get older, it becomes more 'noticeable'. That is to say, we are more likely to be offended by youngsters behaviour.

Posted by: Andrea Jun 30 2009, 12:55 PM

That's the selfish reason for trimming back. I for one hate getting a mouth full of hair

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 12:56 PM

If by "we" you mean "I" as I suspect then I must say you failed.

I find your attempts at humour pathetic , your insults to other posters offensive (thought you would have learned your lesson the other day when you assumed a mum didn't know what a car seat was), your claims that you've had PMs having a go at Iommi cannot be proven, but I have severe doubts. Just do not feel compelled to have the right opinion on everybody's behalf all the time.

Finally don't patronise or try to make a dig at someone reasonable behaviour by ending your post with "my friend"

It's as if you have some kind of syndrome, so please desist.

Thank you.

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 12:59 PM

brilliant

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 01:00 PM

To be honest a part of me wanted to turn it back on them by saying "Prove it" or "What a waste of 13 years body development" or even "Yeah I know", but as I said I thought better of it.

Posted by: Simon Jun 30 2009, 01:02 PM

hmmmm Andrea, I think may be far too innocent to know what you mean by that

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 01:03 PM

Andrea wrote
"That's the selfish reason for trimming back. I for one hate getting a mouth full of hair"

It's the ones that get stuck between the teeth that annoy me.

(Adult humour on an adult forum? Yep that's fine by me).

Posted by: Andrea Jun 30 2009, 01:05 PM

Oh god!! You'll make me gag! That's the worst!

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jun 30 2009, 01:10 PM

what are you licking?

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 01:53 PM

I will try, my friend

Posted by: AmieB Jun 30 2009, 01:56 PM

GMR - You never know when to stop.

Posted by: Simon Jun 30 2009, 01:56 PM

Can't we all just get along lol

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 01:57 PM

Going by this post I can understand why you stick up for your mate Iommi; you obviously have empathy with him. Whatever you say about my posts they don't sink as low you two can go. You and Iommi have brought these boards down to an all time low.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 01:58 PM

Why pick on me? I stopped ages ago and Iommie and Bill continued. If you are going to be critical then be fair.

Posted by: Andrea Jun 30 2009, 02:06 PM

We're all just having a bit of fun. You're starting to get quite annoying with your constant hassling of Iommi and Bill. I'm not on one side or another, but I enjoy being able to come to a forum and have a laugh and be able to have a serious conversation without things getting so bloody trivial. I'm sure everyone else would agree with me that the pages long arguments you lot have been having are better left out of the forums and in private messages. Or better yet, make your point, leave it at that and get on with the original topic.

We're not here to bash people's personalities so give it a rest already.

Posted by: Andy Jun 30 2009, 02:08 PM

I think Amie means that Bill asked you not to call him "my friend" and you immediately went and done it.

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 02:10 PM

I think she was referring to you putting 'friend' in your post, which was clearly aimed at antagonising Bill1.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 02:10 PM

I am happy to leave it; I just hope they will as well.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 02:12 PM

To be honest; if you go on my forums I usually put that on my forums ("my friend"). All I am trying to do is show there is no animosity on my behalf. I shall leave the matter to rest and let the others get on with it.

Posted by: AmieB Jun 30 2009, 02:17 PM

Exactly Andy and Gumbo.

GMR - Bill said not to do that, he finds it annoying. So you did it anyway just to wind him up.
You then try and make excuses for your responses.

I would love to know who has been PM you, if at all true.....

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 02:22 PM

I see that adults can be even more childish & crude than children!!

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 02:25 PM

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 02:26 PM

this daft forum software..............

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 02:29 PM

Surely there is a difference to adults using adult/crude humour to other adults who should be able to understand it and recognise its context versus young girls using adult humour way before their time to embarass another person. Just my opinion. Although don't think I am in the minority on this one........I have a feeling you may be.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 02:30 PM

how do you know how old anyone is on this forum?

I might be 11.

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 02:34 PM

Then you are in the wrong place as rule number 1 of this forum is:

1. You must be over 18 to register for the Forums and to use the site.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 02:53 PM

good word might.

Posted by: J C Jun 30 2009, 03:13 PM

So why is anyone surprised that young kids pick up on this and repeat it, afterall going back to the op the girls must have heard this elsewhere before repeating it

Posted by: Gumbo Jun 30 2009, 03:37 PM

The internet and the people that allow them access to it (parents and possibly schools) is IMO to blame for this increase in knowledge. Surely if the relevant filters are placed on a computer then they should not be allowed to view the content on this site? The fact that parents are lavishing these electronic gizmos on to their children without actually thinking about it properly and putting in to place the right controls to me shows a total lack of responsibility. When the time comes it will not be happening in our house, although unfortunately I cannot account for what happens in other peoples houses and playgrounds.

Posted by: GMR Jun 30 2009, 03:39 PM

That is because you are a caring person, sadly not everybody is like you, or things like you... that is the problem.

Posted by: Anon Jun 30 2009, 03:50 PM

i am also laughing quite loudly and getting some very odd looks from my collegues! I think some1 needs to take a chill pill!!

Posted by: Andrea Jun 30 2009, 04:09 PM

Exactly

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 04:44 PM

Oh look it's got so cross it's grammar has gone all funny.

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 04:45 PM

I won't I promoise I'm only little.

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 04:47 PM

Atta girl!

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 04:48 PM

Quite!

Like I said earlier some kind of syndrome. (Trolling syndrome per chance?)

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 04:51 PM

Excellent comment.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 04:55 PM

There is nothing to say that the girls intended the conversation for any ears other than their own.

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 05:01 PM

Go back to my OP dannyboy. They watched me walking towards them and one looked at me as she said it and then they both started giggling.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 05:07 PM

I did - seems to me it is the fact two 14 year olds got the better of you that is irking you most. If it had been to 19 year olds, what then?

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 05:22 PM

How do you work out they got the better of me dannyboy?

I could understand you saying that if I had shown embarassment, but I showed no emotion whatsoever.

19 year olds? If they did that I would consider then very immature or common.

Posted by: dannyboy Jun 30 2009, 05:46 PM

Embarassment was mentioned elsewhere - but if not by you I stand corrected.


Immature because they said it to get a reaction? The context, but not the content - it can't be the content after the slew of gags earlier.........

Posted by: Bill1 Jun 30 2009, 05:57 PM

To be honest I think that was more a matter of light relief after a certain person's latest ramblings

Posted by: lordtup Jul 5 2009, 12:54 PM

Firstly I would consider it a very sensible idea in the heat we are experiencing at the moment.
Secondly school kids are,and have been for a lot longer than any of us can remember,rebellious by nature so let them have their giggly moments because they will grow up quick enough.The idea that there is a paedophile round every corner is absolute hogwash and we should concentrate on the important issues of teenage behaviour not tabloid press hysteria

Posted by: NicolaC Jul 10 2009, 03:23 PM

Hello, new to the forum.

How on earth have you all been putting up with the squabbling? I have been having a little giggle at my desk this afternoon!!

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jul 10 2009, 03:56 PM

School desk?

Posted by: Bill1 Jul 10 2009, 04:01 PM

Really?

I've been working at my desk, but I've finished now!!!

Posted by: Bill1 Jul 10 2009, 04:02 PM

You're not suggesting it was her and a mate are you?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 13 2009, 08:44 AM

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Schoolgirls (17 / 18 Year old St Barts ones!!)