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Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 09:40 AM

I presume this is a national trend and not just local. It would seem that after an initial high of around 30% increase in footfall when Parkway opened, footfall has dropped back to where is was pre-Parkway development.

Link to PDF report: http://www.westberks.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=32441&p=0


A word to creators of reports like these, and this is not the only one, bloody well put what the figures actually represent: 24,000 over how long? Since the last entry; everyday, week , month?

Posted by: JeffG Nov 30 2012, 10:06 AM

I think you must be looking at a different graph to me. I see a net increase from around a steady 21,000 in the years 2009-2011 to 24,000 now. There was a peak when Park Way opened, but that could have been expected as curious people wanted to see what it was all about. But it's not dropped back to 2009-2011 levels.

We need another set of figures to see what the real trend is: is it going to level out, or keep dropping?

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 10:35 AM

We are both reading the same graph, but please read my previous post again.

Work started on Parkway in March 2009, then it was around 24,000 and it was inevitable that footfall would drop so I have ignored the period for the build. It would be wrong to judge footfall in that period. When Parkway opened, footfall soared to a peak of 27,000, but it is back down to 24,000, the preParkway development level. The point is, Parkway should be bringing in more footfall.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 10:51 AM

To make any judgement, there needs to be more post PW figures.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 10:59 AM

Well October is pretty new, and I'm sure more will come, but it doesn't look good at the moment. I hear at least one major retail outlet in the centre is frustrated by the current level. While there was bound to be a surge in interest, I think it is reasonable to consider the 27,000 peak to be the potential maximum.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:04 AM

Retailing does not look good at all at the moment, in any traditional form - we are still in a rather large depression. It would be interesting to know what the figures would have been withour PW, but that would be just pure conjecture.

if PW has slowed or halted a bigger fall, then the retailers should be happy.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 11:08 AM

I was about to post the exact same thing. My feelings are that Parkway has held up the figures, and that it would be worse without. The argument against that is that there was a big peek, which I still maintain should be the aspiration figure.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:12 AM

Once we are back on the boom instead of bust, 30k should be attainable.

Footfall is only a measure of people in a town - what is more important is the spending figures. 27k just comming to have a look is no use to a retailer. If that additional 3k were just curious, then they are no great loss.

Posted by: Penelope Nov 30 2012, 11:15 AM

Speaking from the Distaff side of things, I much prefer shopping in Reading, I found PW extremely disappointing with limited choice etc, not really bothering with it at all.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:20 AM

London is even better. Turin is nice too even in December as most of the shops are behind arcades. Barcelona very good at this time of year with the Christmas Market in the Medieval quarter in front of the Cathedral ( where you can buy a Tió de Nadal to really liven up Christmas ). Innsbruck is very chic, and of course one can always pop over the pond & do Christmas shopping in New York. ( although it is a bit late now for that, just after thanksgiving is best ).

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 11:23 AM

Of course that is true, but footfall is the measuring device retailers use, and like I said, I heard at least one Parkway outlet is disappointed with the figures. I was never going to be a typical Parkway user, but like Penelope, I was disappointed with the development.

The things I don't like: getting there and back out is a chore (the Robin Hood Giratory). Parking charges were an issue, although that has been addressed somewhat, and it is open air. I believe shopping peaks in the 'dark months' when the weather is usually poor.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:29 AM

If I drive into town, I always park in Sainsbury's & walk, so getting to PW is no harder than any other part of town.

Newbury has always been a retaling backwater ~ for instance the Kennet Centre has only once, since it opened, had 100% occupancy. PW is exactly what I thought it would be.

As to the open airness - the rest of town is out in the open, apart from the KC so I don't see that as a problem.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 11:40 AM

No you don't agent dannyboy

Speaking to people about Parkway, the only positive response was that they enjoy going (in their large car) to shop at Debenhams (parking is easy), others, and a more common response is that there isn't really that much to it. Also, drivers were voting with their 'feet' and parking elsewhere. Weather is an important factor, I'm sure, and being open air is not helpful in winter. I see Parkway as being a bit elitist in its concept, and the shops they have seem to reflect that. But then again, what is the point in catering for me, I am almost certainly not going to be attracted there anyway (I'm an Internet and Retail Parkist).

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:43 AM

Seems people did not understand what was being buiklt & were expecting a Festival Place or Oracle......

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:44 AM

Elitist?

Well, there isn't a pound shop....yet....

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 11:45 AM

I think you are quite right.

I was very anti Parkway and once said that I wish it to fail, and a part of me still thinks like that, but that is more about the way it was sold. I now would very much like to see its fortunes turn round, not least for the sake of people's jobs and livelihood.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 11:47 AM

It won't be that long.


Bare in mind, the footfall figures are for Newbury Town, not just Parkway. It would be interesting to know how the footfall is distributed.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:53 AM

Once the economy picks up, it will.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 11:57 AM

It certainly would.

The one thing footfall can't show is where people park & where they go in town. BB at the other place has always maintained that people don't walk around town - something I feel is untrue.

Posted by: Bartholomew Nov 30 2012, 12:47 PM

The point here is that there are now more retailers in Newbury than there were pre Parkway. I would have expected the footfall to have increased if the scheme was successful. From a retailers view it means that each one now has less potential custom. If I were a retailer I wouldn't be happy.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 12:57 PM

It is too early to judge.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 30 2012, 01:58 PM

If you look through the documentation, the detailed breakdown is there. Debenhams and John Lewis have some of the worst figures in the whole town, hence why John Lewis demanded a meeting with Parkway recently. Regardless of why and how Parkway was built we must support it where possible and encourage others to use it to. I don't like all of the shops there, but I'd rather have any shops than no shops!!!

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 02:07 PM

Andy Capp's link provides no breakdown.

Posted by: John C Nov 30 2012, 02:27 PM

Why should I support a shop that I don't think should be there in a precinct that should not have been built in the way it was.

Posted by: JeffG Nov 30 2012, 03:14 PM

Gosh, this post has taken off since my initial comment.

First off, there is no need to roll your eyes at me, thank you.

Why do you assume that the building of Parkway had any effect on the drop in footfall from 24,000 to around 21,000, why was it inevitable, and why is it statistically valid to ignore that period?

Isn't footfall measured on the whole of the central Newbury shopping area? The Park Way development is at one end of that area.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 30 2012, 04:03 PM

If you look at the October 2012 spreadsheet, I believe one of the tabs shows the breakdown. As for Parkway being built in the first place, I don't accept that it should have been built the way it was and I certainly don't agree with the back room deals that were done. This being said, I'd much rather have the shops that are there than no shops at all. Some people think if Parkway fails, the buildings will go and the old hardstanding car park will return. As much as some people would love this utopia to return, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Worst case scenario will be loads of empty retail units with housing above it. Surely nobody wants that??

Posted by: Jayjay Nov 30 2012, 04:26 PM

You have more faith in human natire than I. Some on this forum would love PW to fail just to say 'I told you so'.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Nov 30 2012, 05:08 PM

Exactly right, but if that ever did happen, Newbury would be much worse for it. There should be some real investigations into why and how Parkway ended up the way it did, but that ship has sailed and it's been built. Being bitter about it won't change anything.

Posted by: GMR Nov 30 2012, 05:22 PM

I find Newbury quite boring. If people have transport they go to Basingstoke, Reading or something else close by (like Newbury retail park). I go to London quite a lot. I like the variety. To be honest what have we got that is exciting? We've got a lot of coffee shops, restaurants and the shops that are in every town (like WHSmiths, Sainsbury's etc).

Posted by: GMR Nov 30 2012, 05:23 PM

I wouldn't like PW to fail, but I would like some more shops in there.

Posted by: NewburyP Nov 30 2012, 05:34 PM

I think the illuminated globe looks good.

Posted by: Penelope Nov 30 2012, 05:36 PM

What, like Superman?

Posted by: NewburyP Nov 30 2012, 05:42 PM

Wasn't thinking about that but now you mention it....

Posted by: blackdog Nov 30 2012, 05:44 PM

Long before that they will add the inevitable roof as they have in every other roofless development in the area.

Posted by: Penelope Nov 30 2012, 05:45 PM

Not currently any where near a phone box are you?

Posted by: On the edge Nov 30 2012, 05:49 PM

I really like the Park Way design and concept, for me, it fits and sits well with the rest of the town. However, fully appreciate Andy Capp's point. Even though he didn't want it, now its here, he really does want it to succeed. After all, its our town! That's probably the view of a good many Newbury people. We aren't doing too badly in Newbury compared to many other towns, which if we are honest, is probably down to the continued population growth. Nevertheless, the environment for retail is very hard at the moment and traders need all the help they can get. That's not pumping sunshine rather explaining where things can be improved and made better.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 05:57 PM

Well stop coming out with cheeky comments like...



...and I will.


Because it was my post and I am able to post what I like. Also, removing a large and popular car park is bound to impact footfall, not notwithstanding other works going. Also, ask anyone to comment on footfall over a protracted period, and I am very sure they would say that footfall is expected to drop whenever there is a big development going on. People would have found Newbury harder to access at the time as people competed for reduced car parking spaces, not to mention any road closures.


Do you think there was a more likely reason?

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 07:00 PM

You find the town centre boring but say people will go to Newbury retail park?!?!

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 07:01 PM

Bravo sir, bravo!!

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 07:05 PM

That ball lies with SLI. Pension funds own most of the shopping centres in the UK. I'd imagine they generally know what they are doing and that they don't invest millions on a whim.

Posted by: Cognosco Nov 30 2012, 07:10 PM

Yes especially when the land to build it cost them the the exorbitant investment of a whole £1? Even if it fails and the whole lot is demolished they are not going to be out of pocket are they?

Posted by: Penelope Nov 30 2012, 07:11 PM

Perhaps even sell it on to a housing developer.

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 07:37 PM

Jeez Costco, I think you might be right.

Posted by: Andy Capp Nov 30 2012, 08:23 PM

Here's the link to the PDF and other documents.

http://www.westberks.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=26156

Posted by: GMR Nov 30 2012, 08:32 PM

That was the Daily Globe.

Posted by: GMR Nov 30 2012, 08:34 PM

Only because it is easier to park outside the shops and they are all close together and free parking. To Park in Newbury you have to pay; granted you have to pay in Reading and Basingstoke etc but they offer more.

Posted by: Penelope Nov 30 2012, 08:37 PM

Daily Planet.

Posted by: GMR Nov 30 2012, 08:45 PM

Yeah, I knew it was one of them. Maybe I should of checked (as well) on the Internet

Posted by: dannyboy Nov 30 2012, 09:21 PM

I can park for free outside Scats, but that isn't a reason for me to go there often.

Posted by: blackdog Nov 30 2012, 10:44 PM

Just the £100 million or so they spent building the place.

Posted by: John C Dec 1 2012, 12:01 AM

But how many apartments did they build and sell for that.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 1 2012, 02:50 AM

I doubt it was a hundred at a million each. I think they're asking about £330k for the best ones and there are about 147 in total, varying in size and price.

Posted by: Bartholomew Dec 1 2012, 09:29 AM

These statistics show that Parkway hasn't really had a significant impact on the change in percentage footfall. Nearly a third of footfall is in Northbrook Street. The Kennet Centre still accounts for about 15% and Parkway about 8.5%.
What I can't really understand is why the count doesn't include the entrance/exit to the parking (unless I've misunderstood where the count took place). This may skew the figures slightly.

So looking at this, the total footfall counted is slightly more than it was in 2009 but the the number of retail stores has increased. I suppose that taking into account the recession its probably better than it could be. Does it mean that the 8.5% attracted in Parkway wouldn't have been in Newbury if the Centre wasn't there? Difficult to tell.

The thing that is really missing in these statistics is what the spending patterns are. Footfall doesn't relate directly to customers.

I also wonder what the figures are for the Retail Park. The comparison with Newbury would be very interesting. This clearly has had an impact on the town centre.

Posted by: dannyboy Dec 1 2012, 11:37 AM

I don't think you can count figures for one bit of town over another. Are you suggesting that people who are counted in the KC only wander around there & no-where else? Newbury is a small place & even fro mthe Broadway to the Railway Station is only about a mile.

I'd be very surprised if people only went to one area on a shopping visit to town ( ie not including lunch time trips to the post office or bank etc ).

Posted by: Sherlock Dec 1 2012, 01:27 PM

Isn't the Business Improvement District team supposed to be mostly about increasing the numbers of people visiting the town centre? What are they doing to ensure that happens? Seems to have gone rather quiet after all the publicity related to the vote.

Posted by: Cognosco Dec 1 2012, 01:40 PM

I think it may have something to do with the bottom line? They may have to resort to using taxpayers money but are not too keen on making that public at the moment?

Posted by: dannyboy Dec 1 2012, 02:39 PM

Impossible. The whole idea of a BID is to stop using taxpayers money - as with the Xmas lights.

Posted by: Cognosco Dec 1 2012, 02:49 PM

Remember you heard it here first! This is Newbury don't forget!

Posted by: blackdog Dec 1 2012, 02:49 PM

Not strictly true as the BID is funded from taxes. However, as the tax in this instance is ony paid by businesses in the BID area (as a surcharge on their rates) the number of taxpayers is limited to those most likely to benefit financially from the BID's activities.

Posted by: John C Dec 1 2012, 03:41 PM

I thought WBC were also part of BID so taxpayers money is involved

Posted by: Bartholomew Dec 1 2012, 07:25 PM

Try reading how the survey is taken. It is a snapshot (12 minutes over the total period) and then multiplied a predefined factor. Any other way would make the whole survey invalid for the reasons you mention.

Posted by: dannyboy Dec 2 2012, 02:37 PM

so a total waste of time then

Posted by: GMR Dec 2 2012, 05:24 PM

Well, that isn't surprising. I don't often go to Scats either.

Posted by: Bartholomew Dec 2 2012, 05:47 PM

If you mean your post then a lot would agree with you.
If you mean the survey then it certainly gives an indication of where people were in Newbury on those days. As I said most were (in order of numbers) Northbrook Street, Kennet Centre next and then Parkway.

Posted by: dannyboy Dec 2 2012, 07:18 PM

A twelve minute idea of where people were. Big deal.

Posted by: Bartholomew Dec 2 2012, 08:00 PM

Not a statistician then? This is how most traffic and usage surveys are done. Samples are taken and used to establish patterns. A snapshot taken 12 times in six hours in Newbury over three days gives a good idea of what is happening. The results were very consistent over the three days showing that the samples were reasonably accurate.

Posted by: Cognosco Dec 2 2012, 08:25 PM

Just remember this data only pertains to footfall not shoppers. Someone working in Newbury could walk through Northbrook Street four times in a day. Even if people were counted going into individual shops it does not mean that they actually purchased anything. The only true way to know if people are using the shops is if the shops manage to survive.

Posted by: Bartholomew Dec 3 2012, 12:09 PM

Agreed. These stats only show how many people were counted not what they were doing. I wonder what the figures are at the Retail Park. This is footfall (and revenue) lost to the town centre.

Posted by: Exhausted Dec 3 2012, 11:21 PM

It's tyrefall up there.