Police causing the maximum inconvenience, M4 closure Options

[Iommi]

Until we know who, what and why you can't show compassion on assumptions - not genuine compassion anyway.

I read that the bloke has been sectioned under the mental health act. That suggests it wasn't a stunt of a sane person. 'Normal' people don't tell the world they want to kill themselves (assuming that is what he suggested), on radio or TV.

[DrPepper]

The bloke has been sectioned under the mental health act. That suggests it wasn't a stunt of a sane person. 'Normal' people don't tell the world they want to kill themselves (assuming that is what he suggested), on radio or TV.

Thanks, can you point me towards a link for this info'. Generally attempted suicides do get sectioned as a first course of action though, and probably rightly so so they can be evaluated as to their mental state.

[Iommi]

Thanks, can you point me towards a link for this info'.

"Thames Valley Police have also confirmed that a man in his 40s has been detained under section 136 of the Mental Health Act."

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article...articleID=14711

Generally attempted suicides do get sectioned as a first course of action though, and probably rightly so so they can be evaluated as to their mental state.

Of course, but for the squillionth time, 'normal' people don't do what this person did!

[DrPepper]

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article...articleID=14711


Of course, but for the squillionth time, 'normal' people don't do what this person did!

Thanks, it'll be interesting to see if this is followed up.

For the 10th squillionth time I was offering an alternate view - no "normal" people don't this - troubled souls do, terrorist do, protester do (fathers for justice being a recent example), and probably others I can't think of right now

Anyway, my Saturday night awaits (yea X factor!)

[On the edge]

But no one is claiming the other posts are. OTE considered your post balanced and rational because he agrees with you, not because it was. Your opinion was assumptive and one sided; that is neither balanced nor rational. Whether anyone else's point was is immaterial, but at least they might be compassionate.


That explains a lot, but I can't see there is anything difficult to understand in it. I'm explaining that with any incident, consideration for welfare extends beyond the protagonist. There are a number of issues that are being ignorantly over looked by the 'let him jump', or 'he doesn't mean it' club.

I think you know full-well what I mean and you are just being deliberately obtuse.


Exactly, and the police did everything they could to ensure that outcome. It is just regrettable that with have some people with such a narrow minded attitude about matter like these.

Have you any other mode than boorish? Isn't anyone able to have a different view point to yours? Are contributors here meant only to subscribe to your own understandings? Makes coherent debate impossible.

I agreed with DrPepper because I thought he was right and his points were grounded. Unlike the attached which is just emotional.

[Iommi]

Have you any other mode than boorish?

That depends on who you are, but more importantly: what you say.

Isn't anyone able to have a different view point to yours?

Where have a said people shouldn't post contrary opinion?

Are contributors here meant only to subscribe to your own understandings?

I don't know if they are meant to or not; I couldn't care less. As you imply, this is a forum for debate and opinion, so is likely to have contrasting points of view, so when people do that I will sometimes reciprocate.

Makes coherent debate impossible.

Perhaps it makes coherent debate impossible when one subscribes to a weak argument?

I agreed with DrPepper because I thought he was right and his points were grounded. Unlike the attached which is just emotional.

And I think you are wrong that his argument was B&R; it was not. Had you said 'I agree', I couldn't have argued that you were wrong, but you offered an argument that I think was. As for emotional; that plays a part, but it is feeble of you to say it is just emotional. DrPepper had a view that we were 'bleeding hearts' and you agreed, so that must mean I am entitled to reply, does it not?

I have posted opinion fortified with arguments. I am happy to engage in sensible debate, but frankly some people on here seem incapable of that. I know you are a bright bloke, but to just post 'sorry, just don't understand this response', is, as I said, feeble in my view.

PS - While I am boorish on occasion, I think it is unfair to accuse me of being boorish on the post you quoted. I will, however, apologise for any rudeness, but I think you are being deliberately obtuse when you say you don't understand my points.

People are focusing on the individual (who we assume threatened to attempt to commit suicide), but I think that is being ignorant of other people's feelings in this matter.

[Chesapeake]

Of course, but for the squillionth time, 'normal' people don't do what this person did!

Iommi, I fully agree with most of your argument on this subject and I bow to your intelligent responses. However, please forgive me if I am a little picky here in your comment about "normal" people not doing this sort of thing. People who commit or attempt to commit suicide are quite often 'normal' people who have come to a period in life, for whatever reason, that they can no longer cope with. It could be that they are the normal, regular, family man, next door who cleans his car on a Sunday but due to the current economic crises has been made redundant and does not want to face up to the fact that he can no longer look after his wife and children in the way that they had became used to. There are many reasons for suicide. Some have obvious mental health issues, some have hidden from depression for years and some just don't think that they are good enough to carry on living. But who is to say that they are not normal?

Even someone who is deliberately seeking attention in this way has such pain in their lives that they do not know how else to ask for help. Humans are filled with many different emotions and that is one of the things that makes us unique on this planet. Thank goodness for variety otherwise we would not have such an interesting forum. However, those who feel the need to be insensitive to anothers pain and trauma are, I believe, selfish and self obsessed in this situation. What a luxury for them that their only problem in situations like this is that they are slightly inconvenienced.

I am blessed with the courage to carry on and do the best that I can for myself and my children not matter what life throws at me and I cherish and appreciate that fact. I do however realise that I am not perfect and that I cannot expect to be as good or inteligent as others but I do not beat myself up about it. I am far from perfect and I am guilty of many things but hopefully not of being uncaring as others on here seem to be.

[On the edge]

That depends on who you are, but more importantly......people are focusing on the individual (who we assume threatened to attempt to commit suicide), but I think that is being ignorant of other people's feelings in this matter.

You are quite right my original response was feeble and yes, of course I understood. Was in the heat of the moment - simply I think this thread is about too things - 1) the Police shutting down trunk roads. and 2) suicides and mental health. We've been concentrating on just the second part. I suspect that's what you've been saying.

Anyway - I'm sorry too and will try not to be obtuse in future!

[Iommi]

Oh OTE...now you make me feel nasty...!

[Darren]

From earlier this year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...elled-jump.html

[Iommi]

Chesapeake, yes, when I say 'normal' people, that is to say it isn't normal for people to want to do these things, although it is normal to feel down, upset, etc. When I said 'normal' people don't do this, I was trying to explain that there must be something behind someone wanting to do this. To say someone is being selfish is true in one sense, but it over-looks many things that include what you posted. People don't usually wake-up and think, 'what shall I do to day: wash the car, do the garden, go shopping and on the way back pretend to attempt to commit suicide'.


i.e. I know exactly what you mean Chesapeake.

[Guest_Bill1_*]

Fantastic and reasoned - if your argument falls down use a swear word.

I don't think I have shown any lack of compassion, I'm just not jumping on the "poor sole - look how understanding I am" bandwagon when they may well be very sinister reasons for this action. I have also not said at any point that I'm correct - just putting across a theory.

Who's jumping on the bandwagon you quote Dr Pepper.

I understand how inconvenient these types of delay (like any delay) are, it's the comments made about a fellow human being (who we nothing about) that shocked and upset me.

[DrPepper]

Who's jumping on the bandwagon you quote Dr Pepper.

I understand how inconvenient these types of delay (like any delay) are, it's the comments made about a fellow human being (who we nothing about) that shocked and upset me.

Who's bandwagon jumping? All those who after the first post came out with psuedo sympathy for a person no one here knows doing something for a reason no one here knows. That is the balance that needs re-dressing with a little bit of realism rather trying to score a brownie point for being the most caring person on this forum.

I don't know the details - hence why I posted a few alternatives to what may or may not have happened.

No one on here knows the details - but many have blindly taken things at face value and slated others for being maybe a bit more open minded with the ability to think for themselves.

To say it again - NO ONE HERE KNOWS - so all opinions are surely equally as valid.

Something to ponder - all you caring types showing sympathy, would you still be so sympathetic if a relative needed an ambulance and it couldn't get to them in time because of this selfish act?

[Darren]

Exactly, push em off. If they want to die, let them die!!

What happened to the good old fashion rope and a tree? Or a bottle of pills and whiskey. It's selfish to kill yourself anyway but inconveniencing other people.. no need? People who jump off bridges onto cars below, and people who jump in front of trains, yes they have mental issues as killing yourself goes against all survival instincts, but are selfish nonetheless.

I've thought many a time of getting out quick and not having to put up with life, a nice secluded field with a tree nice views taking your life peacefully! Not this attention seeking bridge rubbish!

A tissue, you offered a tissue.. Where was the hug? I'd have squished that old lady up in a loving hug, pinched her cheek whilst saying how adorable she was, patted her on the head and off id plod. I do hope it was a used tissue

You and I clearly have a totally different definition of "being maybe a bit more open minded"

Something to ponder - all you caring types showing sympathy, would you still be so sympathetic if a relative needed an ambulance and it couldn't get to them in time because of this selfish act?

Motorways have hard shoulders for just this sort of thing.
Ambulances can be deployed from multiple location
Wiltshire has a very good and capable Air Ambulance

[Iommi]

Who's bandwagon jumping? All those who after the first post came out with psuedo sympathy for a person no one here knows doing something for a reason no one here knows. That is the balance that needs re-dressing with a little bit of realism rather trying to score a brownie point for being the most caring person on this forum.

I don't know the details - hence why I posted a few alternatives to what may or may not have happened.

No one on here knows the details - but many have blindly taken things at face value and slated others for being maybe a bit more open minded with the ability to think for themselves.

To say it again - NO ONE HERE KNOWS - so all opinions are surely equally as valid.

Something to ponder - all you caring types showing sympathy, would you still be so sympathetic if a relative needed an ambulance and it couldn't get to them in time because of this selfish act?

You and others had already made up their minds what happened. It was only when your rather ignorant point of view got exposed by the reaction, did people like you moderate their language. 'Brownies points' is crap, it was revulsion at some people's almost inhumane point of view.

[DrPepper]

You and others had already made up their minds what happened. It was only when your rather ignorant point of view got exposed by the reaction, did people like you moderate their language. 'Brownies points' is crap, it was revulsion at some people's almost inhumane point of view.

Eh, its you who has already made up your mind that is was a suicide attempt. I have come up with two or three alternatives - to which you have added nothing, you just bang on about it being a troubled person with mental disability - which is just your theory at the moment with no evidence to back it up. And no, there is no evidence to back up my theories either - that is what makes them theories in the first place!

I'm done with replying to your post on this subject now as I don't know what happened, you don't what happened and you seem incapable to debate beyond your own narrow minded point of view.

[Strafin]

My main issue with this whole thing is the length of time the roads were closed for. Of course people lose patience - can you imagine sitting stationary on a motorway for four hours? I don't know who it is who should be charged with helping people who find themselves in this position, but perhaps that is waht needs looking at. The man was obviously not thinking straight, whether he was ill or not and we could all end up in that position. So let's not blame him totally, the police should have done a better job of removing the stiuation, but is it really their job to talk down potential jumpers? And what got thge guy so incensed that he ended up there in the first place? Maybe we should be blaming whoever made him feel like this was a good move? Either way I can understand peoples frustration, this took far too long to sort out, but at least it didn't result in a needless death.

[Iommi]

Eh, its you who has already made up your mind that is was a suicide attempt. I have come up with two or three alternatives - to which you have added nothing, you just bang on about it being a troubled person with mental disability - which is just your theory at the moment with no evidence to back it up. And no, there is no evidence to back up my theories either - that is what makes them theories in the first place! I'm done with replying to your post on this subject now as I don't know what happened, you don't what happened and you seem incapable to debate beyond your own narrow minded point of view.

Narrow minded! It is you that decided that if it was suicide and that if the the person didn't finish the job, he couldn't have meant it and was just attention seeking!!! It was others that recognised that there could be any number of issues at play.

I can debate, it is only you ignore totally all that surrounds the issue, like the feelings of the person's friends, relatives and dependants. I have constantly maintained we don't know what happened, but that doesn't remove the fact what some people's automatic response to this was, including yours.

Of course it was a regrettable incident, I don't think any one is denying that, it is just that we were talking about someone's life here and comments like 'he couldn't have meant it' is overlooking the whole issue.

[On the edge]

My main issue with this whole thing is the length of time the roads were closed for. Of course people lose patience - can you imagine sitting stationary on a motorway for four hours? I don't know who it is who should be charged with helping people who find themselves in this position, but perhaps that is waht needs looking at. The man was obviously not thinking straight, whether he was ill or not and we could all end up in that position. So let's not blame him totally, the police should have done a better job of removing the stiuation, but is it really their job to talk down potential jumpers? And what got thge guy so incensed that he ended up there in the first place? Maybe we should be blaming whoever made him feel like this was a good move? Either way I can understand peoples frustration, this took far too long to sort out, but at least it didn't result in a needless death.

I think that's the nub of this particular issue. Lets forget the cause - just for the minute. For many other reasons - we often see the whole road shut for what seem like extended periods. OK accept that after and during 'an incident' things have to be done. However, that shouldn't be a surprise and as it happens frequently, there should be some contigency plans. Rapid implementation of temporary one lane working, diversions to other routes etc. etc. Rather more information on the Radio would help those upcoming, who might be able to take evasive action if they knew - BBC local are particularly bad. Its not just the Police, the Highways Agency have some responsibilities too.

[Darren]

When it comes to "talking down" someone who is suicidal, the police are not the people for the job by any stretch of the imagination. The problem is, they are 99.99% of the time, the first to arrive on scene. You ideally need someone who is trained and has experience in such dialogue. While the police do have trained negotiators available, there are very few of them and work as either civilian staff or are normal patrol officers. Wiltshire is a large, mostly rural force meaning the nearest trained negotiator is many miles away.

When an officer opens a dialogue and gets to a point of being in a conversation, they are pretty much committed to that job until it is resolved - however it may end. The key thing here is trust. Whoever opens the dialogue starts to build a relationship where trust is the keystone. What you cannot have a situation where a level of trust has been built between 2 people and because that person is not a trained negotiator, they are pulled off and replaced. The trust has instantly been lost and the suicidal person will immediately feel abandoned and betrayed by someone who they trusted. This can be all they need to take that final step.

Forget what you seen on television and in films where the hero grabs them and pulls them to safety. This is a very dangerous thing to do. They could easily take you with them.

The motorway was closed in both directions as you cannot anticipate where they might jump. If they are in an agitated state, they may move along the length of the bridge before making their mind up. It's not only the person on the bridge you have to consider but the poor driver they land in front of. The fall may not kill them, but being run over may well do. Operating a single lane also opens the danger of some idiot shouting "jump" as they pass, and going by some of the comments here, that is a real possibility.

The article does say it was closed at J14 and 15 so there was a diversion. Signing the diversion takes time to arrange as the lorry carrying the signs is usually stuck in the queues.

As they were detained under the Mental Health Act, this one ended on a positive note. Hopefully they are now receiving the help they need.