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Posted by: gel May 23 2013, 06:49 AM

Anyone seen story in printed (not online) NWN Advertiser re Richard stating he believes that Tesco & Sainsbury's are conspiring to keep local prices up, and that he's a Tesco Manager; implies he still is.

Can't imagine my employers being too happy about an employee making such statements in the media;
however we know he has his mind on other career choices in 2 years!

Posted by: Turin Machine May 23 2013, 07:45 AM

I believe him. Makes perfect sense.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 23 2013, 09:05 AM

So do I.

Posted by: dannyboy May 23 2013, 10:38 AM

I thought it was Asda that RG used to work for.

Posted by: motormad May 23 2013, 10:57 AM

Posted by: gel May 27 2013, 11:58 AM

More here on NWN:

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2013/employee-blasts-tesco-for-petrol-pump-mugging

Would have thought a possible breach of his employment contract.

Clearly doesn't see his future there I imagine!

Posted by: pbonnay May 27 2013, 12:43 PM

Quite. I would think more of him if he did not still take a salary from a company that is "mugging" people.

Posted by: NWNREADER May 27 2013, 01:43 PM

You just don't get it, do you....... Politicking allows for adopting the high moral ground

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 02:00 PM

I'd say it rather brave of him actually even if it was for political reasons.

Posted by: Simon Kirby May 27 2013, 02:50 PM

Indeed. He's doing something about the injustices he sees, and that's what politics is supposed to be about, and I applaud him. I'm very disappointed to see that the Labour party appear to have marginalised him for his activism, I think they would have done well to support his campaigning, but as it is they really do seem to be a spent force in Newbury. If I thought they would support him I'd say that Richard would do well to move over to the Lib Dems as he won't get anywhere without a platform.

Posted by: NWNREADER May 27 2013, 03:10 PM

According to the local hacks he is one of the night managers, not exactly my image of a 'senior trading manager'

http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/last-minute-flood-of-job-applications-for-new-corby-tesco-store-1-4653373

As a wicked thought.... Is RG able to claim mileage for his drive to work? Thatcham to Corby must cost a mint!!

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 03:28 PM

Seems a bit strange, working for Tesco in Corby but promoting the need for an Asda in Newbury.

Posted by: MontyPython May 27 2013, 03:39 PM

Does Garvie remind you of anyone?


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdkZahkSYN_gPUC_QJaO7sDsJmvN_4BGJjGL_l3i7Mw91hwy56

Mr "Share or Shaft" himself!

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 03:46 PM

That would fine except he isn't promoting the need for an Asda. More strawman fallacies I fear.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 04:20 PM

Yes he is.

https://twitter.com/richardgarvie/status/334612801668653056

Why do you persist with the 'straw man' thing?

Posted by: GMR May 27 2013, 04:56 PM

Actually this isn't new. A couple of months ago Newbury was featured on one of the news channels saying exactly what Richard Garvie has said. They showed you that Reading - just up the road - was cheaper. So they certainly won't worry about what Mr Garvie has said when the same has been said on national news.

Posted by: On the edge May 27 2013, 05:36 PM

Quite agree; whatever his motivation, at least he is shaking things up and asking the right questions. As you say, it is very odd that the local Labour people haven't capitalised on his enthusiasm. Wasn't there a LibDem tie up in the air awhile back? Seemed to crash land because of the usual LibDem egos not wanting any real competition to disturb their comfortable equilibrium. The real issue is that not one of the major parties want any ideas or proposals filtering up from the membership. Policy and direction for all three is in the hands of the party spinners; who certainly don't want little people damaging their democracy! The only reason for local party members is to do the leg work getting the vote out, nothing more, nothing less.

Posted by: newres May 27 2013, 06:08 PM

No he isn't. He is just stating that towns with Asda have lower fuel prices. More trolling and smearing council critics.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 06:32 PM

Ergo, Newbury needs an Asda to bring down fuel prices. Here's another

https://twitter.com/richardgarvie/status/338978990658289664

You also seem to agree here

http://forum.newburytoday.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2264&st=0&p=78628&#entry78628

Posted by: motormad May 27 2013, 06:42 PM

I'm not really going to add anything to the discussion other than Andy's at his straw man fallacies again.
Really doubt he uses it with any sort of distinction and just uses it when he doesn't really have anything useful to say.

I like petrol. It smells nice.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 06:53 PM

Posted by: Simon Kirby May 27 2013, 06:55 PM

No he isn't. He's saying that Tesco and Sainsbury charge more for petrol in Newbury because there is no Asda to provide competition. He's not demanding an Asda, he's demanding that Tesco and Sainsbury stop taking advantage of the lack of competition.

Why do you persist with the straw man thing? Personally I think his campaign is the kind of pop-politics that UKIP or the Daily Mail might go in for, pandering to the middle-class motorist who is outraged by the headline price disparity, but not actually bothered enough to shop around. I like Tesco; I liked working for them, I like their staff, and I shop in their shops, and it doesn't bother me that they set their product prices locally, and they do it across all lines, not just fuel, but if Richard thinks it's worth his time and effort to confront the issue then good for him. What Newbury needs is politicians with belief and conviction to put some new ideas out there.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 07:01 PM

Yes he is


https://twitter.com/richardgarvie/status/289322552533319680

"we need a supermarket fuel discounter such as ASDA" can't mean much else other than we need an Asda.

Posted by: newres May 27 2013, 07:51 PM

I see it now. Yes. You are on the wind up.

Posted by: Sherlock May 27 2013, 08:20 PM

Let's not be cruel, I don't think he really understands what a straw man argument is.

Glad to see that my posts about the A339 litter crisis have stirred his employers into action, though. You won't believe what they've done, it's hilarious! Watch this space.

Posted by: desres123 May 27 2013, 08:45 PM

In reality sainsburys and tesco's wont even listen or care they know they are not breaking any laws and can get away with ripping us off. They know people will carry on buying fuel from them regardless and yes only when asda decides to move in will prices start to come down (hopefully) but aint going to holdmy breath

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 08:51 PM

Here's you saying the same thing in February, my trolling friend:

http://forum.newburytoday.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2264&st=0&p=78628&#entry78628

Anyway, back to the original post, I can't imagine any employer would be too impressed by one of their employees implying they're price fixing.

Posted by: Simon Kirby May 27 2013, 08:59 PM

No he isn't. http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2013/employee-blasts-tesco-for-petrol-pump-mugging. Nowhere does Richard demand an Asda, he is simply pointing out that Sainsbury and Tesco charge less for their fuel in towns that have an Asda, and he's asking Tesco to take the lead from Asda as the cheapest fuel retailer: “I’ve asked Mr Clarke to lead the way and ensure that Tesco offers the best fuel prices everywhere, and to boast about it.”

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 09:14 PM

Are you seriously trying to say the statement "we need a supermarket fuel discounter such as Asda" doesn't imply that we need a supermarket fuel discounter such as Asda?

I think you might be being contrary just to start an argument.

Posted by: Simon Kirby May 27 2013, 09:22 PM

Yes, that's exactly what it says - it's saying we need a fuel discounter such as Asda, and now in Richard's latest campaign he's encouraging Tesco to become just such a fuel discounter: “I’ve asked Mr Clarke to lead the way and ensure that Tesco offers the best fuel prices everywhere, and to boast about it.”

It was your suggestion that Richard was demanding an Asda, and he isn't.


No I'm not.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:27 PM

But that statement doesn't occur in the article.


Yes, quite an alien concept that an employee speaks their mind about their employer. You could hardly call him a sycophant, eh?

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 09:33 PM

Subsequent tweets go on to single out Asda and suggest Newbury should have one.

Blimey, no offence, but you'd argue green was blue for some attention.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:33 PM

I use it when I see people doing it. People like you for instance who frequently distort people's posts to suit their argument.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version. This happen when it appeared that user23 had bent the story in the Newbury Today article, when in fact he was talking about something else. If he'd done that then there shouldn't have been any confusion.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:35 PM

Perhaps you should have posted your source, then we would have understood your comment, but we were referring to the NWN article at the time.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 09:40 PM

I'm quoting tweets word for word and linking to those tweets.

Sorry if you don't like the content, but people are starting to notice you mention a straw man, when you can't refute the facts to divert attention away from the debate.

Posted by: Simon Kirby May 27 2013, 09:41 PM

Oh dear, you got cross, so you lose - sorry, I don't make the rules.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:41 PM

Because you employ it. The link contains no direct promotion for an Asda in Newbury.

Posted by: Simon Kirby May 27 2013, 09:44 PM

You attacked Richard's protest as him demanding an Asda, which he wasn't, and you ridiculed a Tesco manager for demanding a competitor's store, which he wasn't - and that's a straw man fallacy, standing up a false premise just to knock it down - one of your favourite ploys.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 09:46 PM

The tweet linked to in post #18 does.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:49 PM

http://forum.newburytoday.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2358&view=findpost&p=82580

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:50 PM

Doesn't.



He said "For cheaper fuel prices, we need a supermarket fuel discounter such as ASDA or Morrisons. Without one, our prices will be dearer than #rdg"

The meaning takes on a slightly different meaning than your slightly distorted one when you see the entire sentence. Like I said, you would have done well to have posted the link at the time of your OP, thus saving the confusion.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 09:52 PM

He said:

Only difference between Newbury and Corby is Newbury does not have an ASDA.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 09:53 PM

That isn't a promotion for an Asda, your straw man fallacy. I would not have posted an accusation of a straw man fallacy had you posted the link for post #23. Even though you edited the sentence for maximum effect to support your argument.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 09:58 PM

Sorry if you don't like it, I'm just quoting what he said, word for word and linking to the source.

Here's an idea. You should definitely mention a straw man in your reply.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 10:03 PM

Post the truth, and I won't need to, but you frequently twist the truth for your argument. Only one tweet makes any reference for needing a store like Asda or Morrisons, but that is only to get cheaper petrol. You edited his comment to make it look more than that.

But like I said, when I accused you of a straw man, it was with information at the time (we were talking about the Newbury Today article) and you didn't disclose your source, which you presumably went hunting for to find support for your post.


But back to the theme, nice to see an employee speak out when they see something wrong with their employer.

Posted by: user23 May 27 2013, 10:22 PM

All three tweets I posted mentioned Asda, I didn't edit the text in the original post and I linked to the source to validate the quotes. Sorry if you don't like what he said, I'm just the messenger.

Please be sure to include the words "straw man" in your reply.

Posted by: motormad May 27 2013, 10:37 PM

Because you don't do that at all do you? These days I hardly bother to even make an "argument" because there are more important things in my life to worry about. Like friends. Or Pizza. Or you know, sunlight.

Plus the things you lot talk about are nearly always high-end council related nonsense, and unless you spend all your free-time (which I have less and less of these days) at council meetings and ballot votes and protest rallys, the average person (me for example) would have no idea what is going on in your little world.

Regardless of whether or not a so-called "straw man fallacy" was committed, it's a stupid phrase, and makes you sound like a [censored]. Not so much because you use it, but because you use it so often, it's like the kid who cried wolf.

I mean, jeez, a whole new page in a matter of hours.. arguing over what? Some guy did something, for whatever reason, and took a stand against his employer for the motorist who has to pay a lot for fuel.
And yes in Newbury we pay a lot for fuel
And his reasoning behind his actions, whether for political gain or for genuine good-of-the-people are largely irrelevant if the end result is the same.

I think there are too many Tescos in Thatcham and Newbury for a start,but that's just me .

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 11:11 PM

Yes I do, you just need to spot it.


My use of it comes down to when people like you and others post questionable arguments; not my fault as such. I think it is important that people post accurate information, and I feel compelled to reply when I think they don't. I don't always get it right, and sometimes I am wrong with my own information, but as this is an open forum people are entitled to defend their point if they so wish.


I quite agree with you.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 27 2013, 11:16 PM

It is not a case of not liking what he said, it is just a pity that you didn't include the evidence at the time of your OP. Also, you did edit the text buy omitting portions of the sentence. The way you edited the sentence gave a different complexion. Like I said all ready, had you posted the link in post #23, I would not have called you out.


I will if you employ it.

Posted by: newres May 28 2013, 05:23 AM

Quite. Not only that but he interpreted very literally the statements which anybody but someone on the outer edge of he autistic spectrum would see was related only to petrol prices and not at all a desire to see another supermarket in Newbury.

Posted by: newres May 28 2013, 06:53 AM

Error.

Posted by: blackdog May 28 2013, 11:54 AM

Which is a statement that could be read to mean that Newbury is much better than Corby because it doesn't have an Asda.

Posted by: NWNREADER May 28 2013, 03:15 PM

According to my limited understanding, the 'straw man' statement should only be made by the victim. Here we have a 3rd party, maybe with no connection to the originator, making the 'fallacy' claim on his behalf. Maybe RG does wish there was a competitor store, but got only as close as he dare to saying so.....

Posted by: Richard Garvie May 28 2013, 03:25 PM

I was never asked if I would support an ASDA opening in Newbury, but my position on that would be if a suitable site could be found, let's do it. If it saves us up to 8p a litre on fuel, I'd certainly support it.

I've heard nothing back from head office about my letter, and will inform you if I do. I just feel that Tesco should be leading the way to ensure it's customers are dealt with in a fair manner. If that can't be achieved, I'll have no option but to quit. I put doing the right thing before loyalty any day of the week, and whilst that may be the wrong attitude to have in some eyes, at least the community can see that I will always strive to do what is in their interest over my own.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 28 2013, 04:05 PM

A false argument is a false argument regardless of who made it, or who is intended to hear it. However, it is a mute point because user23 clarified his point with subsequent evidence. My use was on his original post, although he had to have several goes before he hit the nail more or less on the head, as it were.

People like user23 (and others) sometimes mischievously twists arguments to make people look worse than they are, or to give a false impressions or to make the argument easier to 'attack'. It is true that RG would like to see greater competition in the fuel delivery business, but, I see it that he would rather that his employer take the lead so that an Asda wouldn't be so necessary. That is how it looked in NewburyToday story, any rate.

Just to clarify, RG is advocating a fuel discounter, not necessarily just an Asda, which is what user23 originally stated. After all, having an Asda doesn't necessarily mean getting a fuel station with it, does it?

Anyway, whatever the issue, where I will agree with user23's point in principle, is that RG is on a sticky wicket with his current employer.

Posted by: NWNREADER May 28 2013, 05:03 PM

I still don't see how you can 'know' what RG intended. You may be correct, but at best you only believe you know what he really means.
The politico in RG will usually mean he leaves room for adjustment, as with all such folk,

Posted by: Andy Capp May 28 2013, 05:14 PM

Fair enough.

Posted by: pbonnay May 28 2013, 07:10 PM

Some large organisations have a "whistle-blower" phone number that staff can use to report suspected wrong doing. Going to the press is not necessarily the only option.

Some info here:

https://www.gov.uk/whistleblowing/how-to-blow-the-whistle

Posted by: dannyboy May 29 2013, 09:33 AM

Not going to look good on the CV is it.

Posted by: motormad May 29 2013, 10:23 AM

It is however the most effective option for grabbing people's attention.

In regards to employment;

https://www.gov.uk/whistleblowing/dismissals-and-whistleblowing

Types of whistleblowing eligible for protection

These are called ‘qualifying disclosures’. They include when someone reports:

that someone’s health and safety is in danger
damage to the environment
a criminal offence
that the company isn’t obeying the law (like not having the right insurance)
that someone’s covering up wrongdoing

Posted by: HJD May 29 2013, 01:20 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say here motormad, not all because I don't eat Pizza for a start, a nice piece of Cheese on Toast tastes similar & costs a lot less .
This forum does seem to be very quiet just lately, to quote Andy Capp in a previous thread (Newbury News, Fare payer bus pass) 'We are hardly overwhelmed with new threads'. I did suggest that perhaps it's because nearly every thread seems to be about or end up containing the words WBC / NDC. Fair enough if politics are what turns you on but all the time, Nah. Here's a suggestion, how about a separate Category reserved purely for Party Politics, then perhaps some of the other average forum members would think about posting again .

Posted by: pbonnay May 30 2013, 07:10 PM

In a way, you might have hit the nail on the head there!

From what I understand, RG went to the press before his employer had responded to his allegations - they had not had the opportunity to explain or put things right. That may lead to the allegation, perhaps, that RG has another agenda in doing what he did.

Posted by: dannyboy May 30 2013, 07:41 PM

According to the net, the Kettering / Newbury divide is down by 33.3%