The Case Against the Charter Market Options

[Cognosco]

I think you've just contradicted yourself here. first sentence says that you wouldn't go through the market place, you'd rather go via Parkway bridge to Sainsbury's. The second says that it doesn't matter where the market is. Clearly it does if you avoid the market place but not Northbrook Street. As I said the market is unlikely ever to be an attraction on its own and needs to be in the right location to properly succeed.

Surely if the market is not selling the products that the punters want at the right price and quality it is game over wherever it is sited. I agree that the more prominent the position the more chance of impulse buying but to ensure good business the stallholder needs to give good service at the correct pricing for products that the punter requires?
If the market is no longer a success then a radical overhaul of how it is being operated should be looked at first.
By not allowing competition has this stifled the market rather than letting demand govern what stalls the punter wants?
I would not be surprised that the dead hand of the council has not helped either as most projects that are backed by the council seem to fail miserably. I am amazed at the cost of running the market that the council reckons it cost? For two days a week it seems a massive cost which should not be put on to taxpayers.
But of course the main thing to consider is the way punters shop has radically altered. Therefore is there a need for the market at all that should be debated.
Having said that I did happen to pass by the new Aldi today and traffic was queuing to get in and the car park looked packed!

[Exhausted]

But of course the main thing to consider is the way punters shop has radically altered. Therefore is there a need for the market at all that should be debated.

I do believe that we should encourage the Newbury shoppers to use the market. If the traders overheads could be kept at a minimum, then perhaps they could compete with the supermarkets and give us choice. We do not have any independant greengrocers or butchers shops in town (I don't think) and we shouldn't allow the nationals to kill the concept albeit from a market trader. We also then need to encourage traders so that the supermarkets at least have some competition perhaps small but little acorns etc.

There is a place for vendors of fresh goods as it isn't easy to get those on the internet.
The market traders have an ad on the local radio which goes somewhere along the way but I'm not sure who pays for that.

It does work, anyone notice how the local fuel prices dropped when they were put under pressure.

[Cognosco]

I do believe that we should encourage the Newbury shoppers to use the market. If the traders overheads could be kept at a minimum, then perhaps they could compete with the supermarkets and give us choice. We do not have any independant greengrocers or butchers shops in town (I don't think) and we shouldn't allow the nationals to kill the concept albeit from a market trader. We also then need to encourage traders so that the supermarkets at least have some competition perhaps small but little acorns etc.

There is a place for vendors of fresh goods as it isn't easy to get those on the internet.
The market traders have an ad on the local radio which goes somewhere along the way but I'm not sure who pays for that.

It does work, anyone notice how the local fuel prices dropped when they were put under pressure.

Agree with most of what you have posted -but- should taxpayers be subsidising the market traders?
If rents income covered costs then fair enough. I still think council costs for running the market needs serious investigation though the figures for what I understand is supplied seem remarkably high!

[Simon Kirby]

I think you've just contradicted yourself here. first sentence says that you wouldn't go through the market place, you'd rather go via Parkway bridge to Sainsbury's. The second says that it doesn't matter where the market is. Clearly it does if you avoid the market place but not Northbrook Street. As I said the market is unlikely ever to be an attraction on its own and needs to be in the right location to properly succeed.

I didn't say I avoided the market place, I said I was as likely as not to walk from Saisburys to the High Street via the library as I was to go through the market place, agreeing with your observation that there's nothing in the market place to attract shoppers like me.

I accept that the current market would do better in Northbrook Street, but the location isn't the issue - the market is not failing because it's in the market square, it's failing because it's an anachronism and the town council's British Leyland management only know how to make Morris Marinas.

Find a successful formula to change the market into a retail success and it will succeed in the market square just as well as Northbrook Street, fail to make that paradigm shift, and the market will fail wherever it is.

[Simon Kirby]

The market traders have an ad on the local radio which goes somewhere along the way but I'm not sure who pays for that.

You do. Advertising budget this year is £5k.

[Simon Kirby]

I do believe that we should encourage the Newbury shoppers to use the market.

Why? And how? The Town Council spends £51k of our tax subsidizing a dozen traders who are selling stuff we don't want in a location we don't want to visit. If you change the market so that it sells stuff people want in a way that people want it then by our own choice we'll support the market, but what's the benefit of encouraging people to shop at the market otherwise?

Really, I wouldn't expect the council to spend £51k encouraging us to shop at supermarkets - and we actually like shopping at supermarkets, so why encourage people to shop where they don't want to?

[On the edge]

This is cut from the 'Vetting Process' contained in a document on the NTC web site:-


If a trader is wishing to sell products considered to be similar to an existing
trader, they need to provide us with a complete product listing. This will then
be discussed with members of the Market Working Party (including Market
Manager) to decide the pros and cons of having the stall.

It is considered of high importance that we at Newbury Town Council support
and look after our loyal traders notwithstanding bringing a wide variety and
quality of stalls to the market to encourage shoppers.

If a trader is granted a pitch after this process they must not add any product
lines without first consulting the Market Manager, who may then seek advice
from the Market Working Party.

Now, if I really wanted to be pedantic, arguably this is protection. A market is supposed to be similar trades pitching against each other NOT looking after 'loyal traders'. Aren't the Liberals supposed to be the children of Messrs Cobden and Bright?

Presumably this means if I wanted to set up 'Fresh and Fruity' a quality low price fruit and veg stall, I'd be told to take a hike. So much fof customer choice and free markets!

[On the edge]

From 'Market Regulations and Shoppers Charter
5 ( ................
During the probationary period NTC reserves the right to exclude any probationary trader, either temporarily or permanently, from the market without notice or explanation.

15. A trader shall not sell/display (or store) any goods or products from their appointed pitch other than those authorised/approved by the council and indicated as such on the traders approved product list. A trader wishing to alter or extend the product range sold/displayed by him/she may only do so with the consent of the council in writing.

No other comment, its left me speechless!!!!

[Cognosco]

From 'Market Regulations and Shoppers Charter
5 ( ................
During the probationary period NTC reserves the right to exclude any probationary trader, either temporarily or permanently, from the market without notice or explanation.

15. A trader shall not sell/display (or store) any goods or products from their appointed pitch other than those authorised/approved by the council and indicated as such on the traders approved product list. A trader wishing to alter or extend the product range sold/displayed by him/she may only do so with the consent of the council in writing.

No other comment, its left me speechless!!!!

Good job Swift Half has been on his £1000.00 mediation course or you would be called vexatious by now!
If only some of the shops in the town that have now gone had consulted the council and produced a protectionist policy such as this they would probably still been in business now. Or perhaps the town would be closed through lack of punters?

[Simon Kirby]

Good job Swift Half has been on his £1000.00 mediation course or you would be called vexatious by now!
If only some of the shops in the town that have now gone had consulted the council and produced a protectionist policy such as this they would probably still been in business now. Or perhaps the town would be closed through lack of punters?

I think it would be interesting to see the secret part of the agreement that the town council forces the traders to sign:

"We're the town council and we can make life very difficult for you, so you need to be very nice to us, see, and not say anything critical about the market or the council, or anything else the council does, 'cos if you do you'll be out on your ear sharpish, right? Now let's keep this little discussion strictly between us shall we, it'll be our little secret."

And don't tell me the council don't force people to sign this kind of thing...

[Cognosco]

I think it would be interesting to see the secret part of the agreement that the town council forces the traders to sign:

"We're the town council and we can make life very difficult for you, so you need to be very nice to us, see, and not say anything critical about the market or the council, or anything else the council does, 'cos if you do you'll be out on your ear sharpish, right? Now let's keep this little discussion strictly between us shall we, it'll be our little secret."

And don't tell me the council don't force people to sign this kind of thing...

Or perhaps not as envisaged by the lack of stallholders?

[nerc]

A Charter to operate a market was given to Newbury to operate a market on Thursdays only (saturday is just an add on) and has been in existance for many hundreds of years.

The granting of a charter allows traders to turn up and sell their wares subject to space being available.

Obviously things have changed since the charter was granted and traders now need to have insurance in place to trade but i strongly believe that NTC or the market management group(mainly regular traders) do not operate under the original charter rights.

NTC may have their own shoppers and market charter rules but these do seem to contradict the original rights granted.

If NTC encourage casual traders how can this be when they expect them to pay by direct debit?.

If you look at many other market towns they encourage casual traders to "turn up and trade" subject to space.

Until this closed shop rule stops the market will never increase.

[nerc]

This is the advert that is placed on the National Market Traders Federation Site.
It clearly shows that casual traders are not allowed to turn up and trade on the day.

Market Location: Market Place, Newbury,
Newbury
RG14 SAA
Type of Market: Outdoor
Notes/Comments: Casuals, Demmers & Pitchers by prior arrangement only. Pitches not available on the day - application forms available.
Number of Stalls: 33
Type of Stalls: Own stalls some small sized ones to rent self erect
Market Days: Thursday, Saturday
Size: Various
Rent: First 8ftat £16.81. Additional £1.21 per ft
Casuals: Yes
Demmers: Yes
Pitchers: Yes
Refuse Collection: Yes
Vehicular Access: Catering Vans only
Service Charge: No
Market Operator: Newbury Town Council
Contact Details: Steve Brind
Market Manager
Tel: 01635 35486
Fax: 01635 40484
Mobile: 07836 500 772
E-Mail: servicesofficer1@newbury.gov.uk

[HJD]

Find a successful formula to change the market into a retail success and it will succeed in the market square just as well as Northbrook Street, fail to make that paradigm shift, and the market will fail wherever it is.

I have mentioned this before, but I pass through Thame quite regularly & they have a Tuesday Market that seems to be absolutely flourishing. So they must be doing some thing right.

[blackdog]

A Charter to operate a market was given to Newbury to operate a market on Thursdays only (Saturday is just an add on) and has been in existence for many hundreds of years.

No one knows what the original charter allowed because it was lost hundreds of years back. The Charter of Incorporation that established Newbury as a borough in 1596 simply states that the Corporation can carry on having markets that is is accustomed to. It says nothing about days of the week.

The Charter in Charter Market is a bit of PR nonsense, like the Manor in Newbury Manor Hotel (which was in Thatcham until the 1930s).

[Simon Kirby]

Until this closed shop rule stops the market will never increase.

The Enterprise Act 2002 makes it a criminal offence to operate a cartel, so if market traders together agreed to exclude stalls that would compete with themselves then that might possibly be a criminal offence. It's not an offence for a town council to do it as so-called vertical agreements are not caught by the act, though the council may be guilty of conspiracy if they facilitate the operation of a cartel. If anyone suspects that the market is operating as a cartel then they need to make a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading.

The limitation of supply or production, and market-sharing are prohibited cartel activities, so if this is what the market traders are agreeing to do then there may be grounds for complaint.

[Simon Kirby]

The Charter in Charter Market is a bit of PR nonsense, like the Manor in Newbury Manor Hotel (which was in Thatcham until the 1930s).

Like the service in council service then.

[On the edge]