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> Corbyn, This is democracy!!!!
TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 12 2016, 08:12 PM
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Shouts a Corbynister outside the NEC meeting as Corbyn leaves. Yep 32 people sat round a table making a decision which affects the whole Country is far more democratic than a referendum involving 40 odd million people!!!!!😂

We need an opposition. This is a disaster.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 12 2016, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 12 2016, 09:12 PM) *
Shouts a Corbynister outside the NEC meeting as Corbyn leaves. Yep 32 people sat round a table making a decision which affects the whole Country is far more democratic than a referendum involving 40 odd million people!!!!!😂

We need an opposition. This is a disaster.


We also need a GE as May is also an unelected leader. Hopefully the Lib Dems may make a come back as I was never comfortable with them being made a scapegoat for volunteering to help the Country in its hour of need and working with the Tories.
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x2lls
post Jul 12 2016, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 12 2016, 09:12 PM) *
Shouts a Corbynister outside the NEC meeting as Corbyn leaves. Yep 32 people sat round a table making a decision which affects the whole Country is far more democratic than a referendum involving 40 odd million people!!!!!😂

We need an opposition. This is a disaster.



It is a blessing. With the 'apparent' recession on the way (?,possibly, might be etc etc, scary premonitions), labour ALWAYS leaves us broke. I would love to see what a GE would do to them right now.


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blackdog
post Jul 12 2016, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 12 2016, 09:12 PM) *
Shouts a Corbynister outside the NEC meeting as Corbyn leaves. Yep 32 people sat round a table making a decision which affects the whole Country is far more democratic than a referendum involving 40 odd million people!!!!!😂

We need an opposition. This is a disaster.

So 32 people decided to let the electorate decide - how undemocractic.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 13 2016, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 13 2016, 12:00 AM) *
So 32 people decided to let the electorate decide - how undemocractic.


That is incorrect. A very small % of Labour voters get to decide. Most of whom seem to be at the far end of the spectrum of the party.
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blackdog
post Jul 13 2016, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 13 2016, 06:09 AM) *
That is incorrect. A very small % of Labour voters get to decide. Most of whom seem to be at the far end of the spectrum of the party.

No - all Labour voters get to decide - that is the electorate for a Labour leadership contest.
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Berkshirelad
post Jul 13 2016, 11:21 AM
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And you need to remember that those 32 have also changed the rules on membership to avoid another stuffing of the Party with Corbyn supporters at £3 apiece
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Andy Capp
post Jul 13 2016, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Jul 13 2016, 12:21 PM) *
And you need to remember that those 32 have also changed the rules on membership to avoid another stuffing of the Party with Corbyn supporters at £3 apiece

And mischievous Tories exploiting the weakness in the system too.
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 13 2016, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 13 2016, 01:26 PM) *
And mischievous Tories exploiting the weakness in the system too.

It's possible, but I think you should assume good faith until you have good reason not to. I can't speak with any great experience but I believe the great majority of Labour members who, like me, are supporting Corbyn, do so because they support his politics for it's unapologetic social justice, and support Corbyn because of the way he goes about politics. For sure, if you prefer your politics selfish and your politicians shiny then Conservative is always going to be your vote, but there are rather a lot of people who find Corbyn's Labour very attractive.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 13 2016, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 13 2016, 10:35 PM) *
It's possible, but I think you should assume good faith until you have good reason not to. I can't speak with any great experience but I believe the great majority of Labour members who, like me, are supporting Corbyn, do so because they support his politics for it's unapologetic social justice, and support Corbyn because of the way he goes about politics. For sure, if you prefer your politics selfish and your politicians shiny then Conservative is always going to be your vote, but there are rather a lot of people who find Corbyn's Labour very attractive.


I agree. Though he will never win a GE. And surely that is the point of opposition? Please don't tell me he will. You know in your heart of hearts he won't.
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On the edge
post Jul 14 2016, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 13 2016, 11:03 PM) *
I agree. Though he will never win a GE. And surely that is the point of opposition? Please don't tell me he will. You know in your heart of hearts he won't.


You never know; if WBC have anything to do with the count, he may very well!


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blackdog
post Jul 16 2016, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 13 2016, 11:03 PM) *
I agree. Though he will never win a GE. And surely that is the point of opposition? Please don't tell me he will. You know in your heart of hearts he won't.

I don't see that any of the no accounts that are challenging him would do any better at a general election - but Corbyn hasn't been doing so badly at this opposition lark - the government has made a lot of U-turns on his watch.

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On the edge
post Jul 17 2016, 05:42 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 16 2016, 11:19 PM) *
I don't see that any of the no accounts that are challenging him would do any better at a general election - but Corbyn hasn't been doing so badly at this opposition lark - the government has made a lot of U-turns on his watch.


A pretty astute summary Blackdog!


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GMR
post Jul 18 2016, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 13 2016, 10:35 PM) *
It's possible, but I think you should assume good faith until you have good reason not to. I can't speak with any great experience but I believe the great majority of Labour members who, like me, are supporting Corbyn, do so because they support his politics for it's unapologetic social justice, and support Corbyn because of the way he goes about politics. For sure, if you prefer your politics selfish and your politicians shiny then Conservative is always going to be your vote, but there are rather a lot of people who find Corbyn's Labour very attractive.


Of course there are a lot of people who find Corbyn's politics attractive; there is not argument there. However, not enough for him to form a government.

The Conservative are always going to be the politics of choice as long as the Labour keep moving left. Blair learnt that lesson and brought them back to the centre and won three elections.

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Simon Kirby
post Jul 18 2016, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 18 2016, 05:15 PM) *
Of course there are a lot of people who find Corbyn's politics attractive; there is not argument there. However, not enough for him to form a government.

The Conservative are always going to be the politics of choice as long as the Labour keep moving left. Blair learnt that lesson and brought them back to the centre and won three elections.

We've had the argument before - I'm not interested in winning elections, I'm interested in perusing social justice, and I'm not going to abandon those principles of social justice just because they're not broadly popular. You're entirely right, Conservatism always has the advantage - it plays to self-interest and a natural deference to authority and the establishment, and the best I can hope for is to challenge that orthodoxy and make the argument that acting equitably and collectively is the moral thing to do even though it means those with the advantage giving up some of what they have.

It's a mistake however to think that power is the only way to affect change, and a mistake too to think that politics is Westminster, because social activism is always available to the powerless and politics starts at home.


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GMR
post Jul 18 2016, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 18 2016, 07:17 PM) *
We've had the argument before - I'm not interested in winning elections, I'm interested in perusing social justice, and I'm not going to abandon those principles of social justice just because they're not broadly popular. You're entirely right, Conservatism always has the advantage - it plays to self-interest and a natural deference to authority and the establishment, and the best I can hope for is to challenge that orthodoxy and make the argument that acting equitably and collectively is the moral thing to do even though it means those with the advantage giving up some of what they have. It's a mistake however to think that power is the only way to affect change, and a mistake too to think that politics is Westminster, because social activism is always available to the powerless and politics starts at home.





The trouble with your comments is that not even the Labour MPs believe that. The People across the country (who can get Labour into power) don't believe it. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinions; as the neo-Nazi's, Lib-Dems etc are entitled to their views (no matter how far they are out of sync with the rest of the country they are).

I also agree that there are other ways to change things; the Poll tax is a good example. But they are few and far between. Putting all that to one side; If Labour MPs don't believe in him, if traditional Labour voters (outside those that have signed up) don't believe in Corbyn then all you've got is your principles, and of course a continuous Tory Government. I am sure the Tory government and other parties (who hope to pick up disenchanted Labour voters) support your principles wholeheartedly. At least there won't be any changes in the near future.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 18 2016, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 18 2016, 07:37 PM) *
I also agree that there are other ways to change things; the Pole tax is a good example.


I'm a brexiteer but having a separate tax just for the Polish? That's a bit far right wing, even for me!!!!😄
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 18 2016, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 18 2016, 07:37 PM) *
The trouble with your comments is that not even the Labour MPs believe that. The People across the country (who can get Labour into power) don't believe it. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinions; as the neo-Nazi's, Lib-Dems etc are entitled to their views (no matter how far they are out of sync with the rest of the country they are).

I also agree that there are other ways to change things; the Pole tax is a good example. But they are few and far between. Putting all that to one side; If Labour MPs don't believe in him, if traditional Labour voters (outside those that have signed up) don't believe in Corbyn then all you've got is your principles, and of course a continuous Tory Government. I am sure the Tory government and other parties (who hope to pick up disenchanted Labour voters) support your principles wholeheartedly. At least there won't be any changes in the near future.

The trouble with the Labour MPs, and I suspect a significant minority of the old-guard and party grandees, is that they don't believe in the values which Corbyn has awoken in the majority of the Labour Party membership.

I've heard the argument about a loss of support in the Labour heartlands and I don't accept it. Yes, I accept that Labour has lost support, but I reject the notion that Labour values of social justice are in any way defined by the views of the people who have traditionally benefited from that social justice. Specifically I've heard the argument that Labour, being the party of the working man, should take up whatever opinion that working man would advance, no matter how unjust and objectionable. That argument is bogus - Labour was never the party of the working man - Labour is the party of social justice, and it's in the nature of the thing that the beneficiary of that social justice has oftentimes been the labouring poor, but if "traditional" Labour voters are abandoning Labour then that's a tragedy for social justice but it's no argument to change what Labour's about.


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Simon Kirby
post Jul 18 2016, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 18 2016, 08:37 PM) *
I'm a brexiteer but having a separate tax just for the Polish? That's a bit far right wing, even for me!!!!😄

laugh.gif


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GMR
post Jul 19 2016, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 18 2016, 08:47 PM) *
The trouble with the Labour MPs, and I suspect a significant minority of the old-guard and party grandees, is that they don't believe in the values which Corbyn has awoken in the majority of the Labour Party membership.


Well, I can't argue with that. Unfortunately his "values" are minority values.




QUOTE
I've heard the argument about a loss of support in the Labour heartlands and I don't accept it. Yes, I accept that Labour has lost support, but I reject the notion that Labour values of social justice are in any way defined by the views of the people who have traditionally benefited from that social justice. Specifically I've heard the argument that Labour, being the party of the working man, should take up whatever opinion that working man would advance, no matter how unjust and objectionable. That argument is bogus - Labour was never the party of the working man - Labour is the party of social justice, and it's in the nature of the thing that the beneficiary of that social justice has oftentimes been the labouring poor, but if "traditional" Labour voters are abandoning Labour then that's a tragedy for social justice but it's no argument to change what Labour's about.


Social justice means different things to different people. You could argue that the Tories and mostly all parties believe in social justice. But saying that, parties must adapt to the future otherwise they will die. Look at the Tory history; they changed and adapted to modern society. What Labour wants (under Corbyn) is to take the party back to days gone-by. Corbyn's politics were annihilated in the 70s/ 80s. Remember the "longest suicide note in history"? He wants to bring that back. A good example of this was/ is the Trident option. It helped destroy them then, and it is destroying them now (Corbyn lost by 117 votes). Values are ok, but they have to be meaningful and achievable (especially in government). The BNP have values; you can argue everybody has values. But you can only achieve those values by being in Government, otherwise you are just heckling from the outside, watching the world go by. I agree we need to change the world, but that can only be achieved through Government or mass revolt (and Corbyn hasn't got mass revolt; only his party is revolting, and that is against him).

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