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Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 03:31 AM

It would seem that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._M._W._Turner, a world famous Romantic landscape painter, painted Donnington Castle. I have never heard of this before. I understand that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Turner_%28artist%29 (a different Turner than the one famous for painting 'The Fighting Temeraire') painted a very similar picture to that listed at Dreweatts.

Are there any art gurus on this forum that could confirm whether the picture is a legitimate JMW Turner, or not? I have a feeling a mistake has been made.


http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article.aspx?articleID=18637



http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj=23819

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 14 2011, 07:51 AM

If that picture is actually the one being sold, then I can assure you that Trading Standards should be called in.

The Oxford William Turner is not the same as J.M.W. Turner.

The second picture is a coloured engraving taken from the first.

Are Drewetts claiming that it is by JMWT or is that just an assumption by the NWN and the story allowed to go out unchecked by the auction house to drum up interest?

What's that I hear you say? Skullduggery in the art world? The NWN not knowing what it's doing? Which do you think is most likely?

Actually, thinking about it, it could be either couldn't it?

Good spot Mr Capp.

Expect this story to be changed as the day goes on.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 09:35 AM

It is Drewwitts that are making the claim: http://www.dnfa.com/donnington/search.asp?view=lotno&auction=13491&lotno=82

My evidence comes from the fact that if one performs an Internet search for Turner and Donnington, this picture is almost non-existent. If Turner had painted this, you would get many. This painting might be Turner (Turner of Oxford), but I fear not by Britain's favourite artist, JMW Turner.

If it is the famous JMW Turner, then I'm quite excited, as I have not heard of this before.


Would NWN relentless news hounds investigate?

Posted by: admin Dec 14 2011, 09:48 AM

Morning all. We have checked (again) the authenticity of the painting with Dreweatts who have confirmed it is an original watercolour by JMW Turner.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 14 2011, 10:00 AM

http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj=23819 says Andy Capp is right.

Confusingly enough http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=65694&workid=28873&searchid=11013&tabview=image of Donnington Castle - the one in Shropshire.

Very good spot Andy Capp, certainly needs some clarification.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 10:15 AM

It just really surprises me that there is not more on this on the Internet. I still doubt Dreweatts. Havimg said that, it does seem to have 'RA' at the end of the signature and it is meant to have been authenticated by Sotherby's.

Posted by: JeffG Dec 14 2011, 10:53 AM

However, The Government Art Collection (link in Simon Kirby's post) styles the Oxford Turner as "W. Turner R.A.". Since the engraving is still in that collection, it makes it more than likely that this is the original JWA Turner. I prefer to believe Dreweatt's than idle speculation (although interesting!).

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM

I would expect an original JMW Turner (Joseph Mallord William Turner RA) to have a number of images on the Internet. This is not so. I know this is not proof, but I find it surprising. There is an image attributed to William Turner (aka Turner of Oxford) which is similar to the image above.

I am not by any means an expert, but it surprises me. Did Turner of Oxford rip JMW Turner off?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 14 2011, 11:08 AM

Not quite clear what you're saying.

Government Art Collection attributes their painting to William Turner (of Oxford) and it says under the painting "Drawn by W. Turner R.A". Wikipedia tells me that William Turner (of Oxford) held his first exhibitionn at the Royal Academy in 1807 - that entitles him to style himslef W. Turner RA doesn't it?

The Dreweatts engraving is not actually the same painting, though it's obviously the same scene, so it's plausible (thought confiusing) that it's actually by JMW Turner, but I'd like to know more.

Who's JWA Turner?

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 11:20 AM

Dreweatts have a watercolour painting, the other one is an engraving. Both compositions are identical except for the colours. The colours of the watercolour do look like a 'JMW Turner', with that brown/red theme.

I would like to to be a JMW Turner, it is good to think he visited here and painted the most prominent scene in the area. I'd like to get a reproduction, hence my initial 'idle' investigation. It also seems extraordinary that Turner of Oxford would copy a JMW Turner original without there being a reference to him doing so it somewhere. Both artists did watercolour landscapes.

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 14 2011, 12:42 PM

There is certainly no mention of Donnington on this list of Castles from the Turner Web Site

http://www.j-m-w-turner.co.uk/turner-castles.htm

Posted by: JeffG Dec 14 2011, 12:43 PM

Andy Capp was suggesting in his post (#6) that the 'RA' in the signature implied JMW Turner. I was just pointing out that the Oxford Turner was also styled as RA.


So I got my initials mixed up

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 12:52 PM

I think, like myself, Simon didn't understand your rationale with "Since the engraving is still in that collection, it makes it more than likely that this is the original JWA Turner."

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 14 2011, 01:15 PM

Interesting that there is no Castle called Donnington in Shropshire




But allowing for 'artistic license'...these look awfully alike.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 01:27 PM

And the one that 'is', looks like our ruin.

Posted by: NWNREADER Dec 14 2011, 01:30 PM

Does this help?

Note the comment 'currently untraced'
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999998&workid=73955&searchid=9742

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 01:34 PM

It does, yes. So Turner of Oxford might have 'stole' the image? And someone might want to notify the Tate of its whereabouts!

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 14 2011, 01:36 PM

Except that we know Sothebys had it in 1999. (If it's the same one) Without a picture we just don't know.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 01:37 PM

True, it might not be the same image, but if I were a betting man, I'd say it is the one! This presumably adds to the prestigiousness of it?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 14 2011, 04:16 PM

I'm wondering if JMW Turner painted the original that Dreweatts are selling today, and that the print from an engraving made my William and Letitia Byrne that's in the Government Art Collection is made from that JMW Turner original and erroneously attributed to William Turner of Oxford by the engravers.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 04:57 PM

That is what it looks like to me...now.

Posted by: IanB Dec 14 2011, 05:42 PM

Interesting speculation.

If there is an error somewhere, I also notice the same has happened with another of JMW Turner's watercolour pieces.

'Newbury, from Speen Hill' circa 1805 is listed on the Tate Collection here:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999998&workid=73954&searchid=9289

It is also attributed to a 'William Turner (of Oxford)', having also been engraved by William Byrne here:

http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj=20238

Interestingly, both this and the Donnington Castle lot were purchased at Sotheby's 22nd February 1977...

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 14 2011, 06:05 PM

Yes, http://beta.tate.org.uk/art/work/T05945 attributed to JMW Turner.

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 14 2011, 06:54 PM

There is always the possibility that someone, somewhere has been sold a pup.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 14 2011, 07:53 PM

It seems to me more of a Turner of Oxford plagiarising than anything else. Or at least the owners of the art.

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 15 2011, 07:26 AM

Stand down.

It didn't sell.

That it was a Turner there is no doubt. Which Turner however, seems still to be a bit of a problem. (doubt if it was Tina though).

Posted by: Nothing Much Dec 15 2011, 12:01 PM

Bit of excitement there.
I thought I would mention how easy it is to make a faux attribution.

J-F Millet (the french chap from Barbizon) had a large family who it seems all became artists.
I bought an LP a long time ago because of the cover picture.It was Songs of the Auverne.
The cover was a scene of sheep walking up a path. I played it a few times (Philistine ....Moi?)

Credits were given to the Bridgeman art collection for the use of the Jean Francois Millet.
Only it wasn't him. I know because I have a watercolour by his less smart brother.
Jean Baptiste Millet. Sometimes J-Bapt. Millet. That cover and my picture have the same signature.

The picture I bought came from Highclere in 1968, for £6.00 is now worth about £1000.00.
If it had been J-F it would not be on my wall anymore! It had been through Christie's at some stage
as there is a sticker on the back.

Posted by: Nothing Much Dec 15 2011, 12:03 PM

Sorry . Silly repeat posting

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 15 2011, 12:06 PM

I've received a very nice response from the Government Art Collection which I'm sure they won't mind me sharing with you:

Andy Capp, I hope there is some possibility of you getting a print of the original, and how cool that, that JMW Turner painted Donnington Castle.

Posted by: Andy Capp Dec 15 2011, 12:33 PM

Thanks for doing that. As the conversation went on, that is how it looked to me; that the reference to Turner of Oxford was the error, rather than the watercolour (Dreweatts stated that authenticity was made by Sotherby's).

It seems JMW Turner RA painted plenty of water colours, but fewer oils, so hence the difference in recognition and value (I thought £40 to £60k to be too low at first). While sometimes technically flawed, he has painted some magnificent art. 'Donnington Castle' isn't amongst his best, but it does contain elements that he is recognised for, including people relaxing in the midday sun.

'Sun is God' were alleged to be his dying words.

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Dec 15 2011, 01:36 PM

So all we have to do now is get the picture of the Castle in Shropshire properly labeled and job's a good'un.