Party Politics Options

[Simon Kirby]

It cropped up in another thread, but rather than divert that I thought I'd start a discussion here:

What actual policies differentiate the main political parties?

If I were to join one of the main political parties I'd make the choice mainly on the party's social and ethical vibe rather than it's politics as such, and I'm not sure there's even a clear difference between Tory, Lib Dem and Labour politics any more. Socially and ethically I think there's a clear brand difference with the Tories being generally uncaring, posh and reactionary, Lib Dems being middle-class and patrician, and Labour being blue-collar, but would any of the policies of the last 20 years be incongruous from any of those three parties? UKIP is different in that they have pretty much just one policy that no one outside the swivel-eyed wing of the Tory party would touch with a barge pole, but one swallow does not a summer make. Of the main parties I'm attracted most to the Greens because I share their ethics, and they do have some distinct policies that I like, and they also don't go in for the cult of personality which has crept horribly into British politics.

So my question is: shouldn't politics be more about policy?

[Andy Capp]

"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

It lends me to think how SkyTV do things. A clever mixture of channels, none of which have everything you need, but a mixture to maximise their profit. You tend to find aspects of all parties are agreeable, but you then have to weight the policies to see which one best suit.

I don't believe Tories are the nasty party as such, although their policies will tend to hurt less fortunate people than others, but the false promise Labour gave the country in the early 00s is equally mean I feel. There's no such thing as a free lunch; give today, pay tomorrow.

One problem is our FPTP voting system. People had the chance for AV, but the electorate were too thick to see the benefits of it. It also would be something the Tories might have ended up benefiting from had they adopted it. People could have voted UKIP then Tory (or Greens, then Labour), without it necessarily improving the chances of a party you dislike winning the general election.

The other big problem is people voting without having a bloody clue what they are voting for: colour before policy as it were. People voting for a party because they do, not because they understand what they represent and what they could do.

Mind you: "If Voting Changed Anything They'd Abolish it".

[On the edge]

I suppose the difference between the parties has disappeared simply because politics is sold these days. That means appealing to the mass market; which inevitably means the same, only difference is a little bit of flavour. Coke, Cherry Coke, Coke Zero.

All this means that politics is simply for those who want a degree of adulation. I'm important because I'm a councillor etc. it can't be just power, because even an idiot would see the 'elect' have no power, save the very very few at the top.

Power resides in the administration. Life is complex and ordered and administrators have filled the void left by real politicians. Who is really more powerful, the PM or the permanent heads of the Civil Service? The Mayor or the CEO?

What would actually change if the Greens got a majority next election? I'd wager nothing! We live in a blind dictatorship.

[Strafin]

"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

It lends me to think how SkyTV do things. A clever mixture of channels, none of which have everything you need, but a mixture to maximise their profit. You tend to find aspects of all parties are agreeable, but you then have to weight the policies to see which one best suit.

I don't believe Tories are the nasty party as such, although their policies will tend to hurt less fortunate people than others, but the false promise Labour gave the country in the early 00s is equally mean I feel. There's no such thing as a free lunch; give today, pay tomorrow.

One problem is our FPTP voting system. People had the chance for AV, but the electorate were too thick to see the benefits of it. It also would be something the Tories might have ended up benefiting from had they adopted it. People could have voted UKIP then Tory (or Greens, then Labour), without it necessarily improving the chances of a party you dislike winning the general election.

The other big problem is people voting without having a bloody clue what they are voting for: colour before policy as it were. People voting for a party because they do, not because they understand what they represent and what they could do.

Mind you: "If Voting Changed Anything They'd Abolish it".

You're an idiot

[Andy Capp]

You're an idiot

"I'm not sure I deserved that!"


A fascinating and thought provoking post Strafin, but be careful arguing with one in public, as onlookers might not be able to tell the difference.

[Lolly]

It cropped up in another thread, but rather than divert that I thought I'd start a discussion here:

What actual policies differentiate the main political parties?

The problem as I see it is that policies seem to change as soon as a party comes into power, and MPs follow the party whip rather than their own convictions. I'm also inclined to agree with On the Edge that the non elected 'Sir Humphreys' probably have the most influence.

[Andy Capp]

The problem as I see it is that policies seem to change as soon as a party comes into power, and MPs follow the party whip rather than their own convictions. I'm also inclined to agree with On the Edge that the non elected 'Sir Humphrey's' probably have the most influence.

I think, broadly speaking, we know what we are going to get with each party, and the fact that there isn't a great deal between the parties is probably a tribute to democracy. As a nation, we have the governments we deserve; not want, but deserve.

[On the edge]

I'd argue its much more to do with apathy and disengagement. Today's politics are simply reactive, politicians are then simply managing. Real government needs leadership, which in turn demands a vision. Therein lies the rub.

[dannyboy]

There is no difference. All politicians are in it for themselves & have been ever since politics changed from a vocation to a career.

[NWNREADER]

I asked my friend's little daughter what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be Prime Minister one day. Both her parents, Labour supporters, were standing there, so I asked her, "If you were Prime Minister what would be the first thing you would do?"

She replied, "I'd give food and houses to all those poor people on benefits." Her parents beamed, and said, "Welcome to the Labour Party!"

"That's a worthy goal!" I told her, and continued, "But you don't have to wait until you're Prime Minister to do that. You can come over to my house, mow the lawn, pull weeds, sweep my drive and I'll pay you £25. Then I'll take you over to that homeless chap who hangs out in front of the store. You can give him the £25 to use toward food."

She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, "Why doesn't the homeless man come over and do the work himself and you can just pay him the £25?"

I smiled and said, "Welcome to the Conservative Party."

Her parents still aren't speaking to me.

[Claude]

I think, broadly speaking, we know what we are going to get with each party, and the fact that there isn't a great deal between the parties is probably a tribute to democracy.

Personally, I don't know what I'm going to get with each party. What I'd like to see is a single independent resource which lists each party and summarises their 3/5/10/n major policies/pledges, helping me to make a decision. I haven't looked for it yet but if anyone knows of one I'd be grateful of a link. I can go onto each party's website and read their waffle, but I'd really like something readable and unbiased.

I've never been aware of such a resource being available in the past, and that's why I think so many young people treat an election like X-Factor, they simply vote for the person they like the most - Cameron, Clegg or Milliband, or as mentioned previously, they pick their favorite colour.

[Simon Kirby]

Personally, I don't know what I'm going to get with each party. What I'd like to see is a single independent resource which lists each party and summarises their 3/5/10/n major policies/pledges, helping me to make a decision. I haven't looked for it yet but if anyone knows of one I'd be grateful of a link. I can go onto each party's website and read their waffle, but I'd really like something readable and unbiased.

I've never been aware of such a resource being available in the past, and that's why I think so many young people treat an election like X-Factor, they simply vote for the person they like the most - Cameron, Clegg or Milliband, or as mentioned previously, they pick their favorite colour.

I agree. Parties produce manifestos but that's largely just guff and by the time Sir Humphrey has got to work on it none of it is translated into action. Big Society is a great example: it was a big part of the Tory campaign, and I voted for Richard Benyon on the basis of that policy alone, but it sunk without trace. Remember the Bonfire of the Quangos? Another great idea shunted into the sidings.

[On the edge]

I agree. Parties produce manifestos but that's largely just guff and by the time Sir Humphrey has got to work on it none of it is translated into action. Big Society is a great example: it was a big part of the Tory campaign, and I voted for Richard Benyon on the basis of that policy alone, but it sunk without trace. Remember the Bonfire of the Quangos? Another great idea shunted into the sidings.

Can truly empathise with that!

'Big Society' could have solved many problems. Even now, a very pertinent issue round here. We could have set up a 'Fuel Co-op', and so on. Before anyone makes the suggestion, yes I have tried; but to make things happen you need at least the tacit approval of the local political establishment. From the Tories, just apathy, from the LibDems, sorry, not invented by us.

I've just seen an election warm up flyer from the yellow ones, it quotes dear old Councillor Woodhams bemoaning the fact that WBC have spent a wadge on vehicles. He said he was surprised that the Conservatives let this unnecessary expenditure take place on their watch! Watch just about sums it up, our inert and reactive politicians don't do anything, they simply watch

Fore those who think there is a difference between parties, the LibDem Councillors remarks would fit exactly in a Tory flyer about NTC expenditure on flags!

[Andy Capp]

Personally, I don't know what I'm going to get with each party. What I'd like to see is a single independent resource which lists each party and summarises their 3/5/10/n major policies/pledges, helping me to make a decision. I haven't looked for it yet but if anyone knows of one I'd be grateful of a link. I can go onto each party's website and read their waffle, but I'd really like something readable and unbiased.

I fear you are a rather rare 'beast' in that you appear to try to make rational judgements. The problem you have is you are up against a public who largely do not apply the same amount of scrutiny and therefore your effort is rather futile.

I've never been aware of such a resource being available in the past, and that's why I think so many young people treat an election like X-Factor, they simply vote for the person they like the most - Cameron, Clegg or Milliband, or as mentioned previously, they pick their favorite colour.

I couldn't vote Labour, although a did tactically vote Lib Dem in '97 in the hope they would win here and deprive Tories of a victory. However, the realisation of what a Labour government would be like was brought home very quickly and I suspect we will continue to pay the price for having a Labour government for quite some time yet. Regrettably, I have seen little about the Tories that suggest they would have done anything fundamentally different had they been in office anyway.

Manifesto commitments are easy to find as many media outlets will run bullet point like publications of them, but I think people are being a little naive to think that is straight forward to be able to honour all of those, set against a country where very powerful people are in place to prevent or hinder you.

If I were in charge, I would like to see manifesto commitments reviewed independently to see if they add up, and make it mandatory that parities would have to resubmit any that didn't

[dannyboy]

If I were in charge, I would like to see manifesto commitments reviewed independently to see if they add up, and make it mandatory that parities would have to resubmit any that didn't

I fear you are a rather rare 'beast' in that you appear to try to make rational judgements. The problem you have is you are up against a public who largely do not apply the same amount of scrutiny and therefore your effort is rather futile.

[Andy Capp]

If I were in charge, I would like to see manifesto commitments reviewed independently to see if they add up, and make it mandatory that parities would have to resubmit any that didn't

I fear you are a rather rare 'beast' in that you appear to try to make rational judgements. The problem you have is you are up against a public who largely do not apply the same amount of scrutiny and therefore your effort is rather futile.

I am not likely to be in charge either, but a thousand mile journey starts with the first step. I see submitting an 'honest' manifesto as the first step.

[On the edge]

I quite understand the attraction of independent scrutiny of manifestos, but these things, as we have found with 'balanced scorecards', 'target setting', management by objectives and such like, these things are easily circumnavigated. The Classic was FDRs commitment that he wouldn't send 'your sons to fight in a foreign war'. Which most people stateside took to mean no war at all....

[Exhausted]

For those who think there is a difference between parties, the LibDem Councillors remarks would fit exactly in a Tory flyer about NTC expenditure on flags!

This begs the ongoing question, what do Westminster politics have to do with local council?.
Scrap the party system and work for the local community not the local party.

[The Hatter]

Another thing, why have we got so many Councillors? They don't seem to do much, so can't we drop a few?