Hillsborough Disaster Verdict Options

[Andy Capp]

It is clear the game was badly managed in a stadium that was dangerous. Had the police managed it better the tragedy would not have happened. It is also clear the police tried to cover up their mistake. The one bit I find hard to understand is the idea that fans were blameless. I used to go to football back then and know what it was like and it seems to me from the footage that some fans that were late cared more for seeing the start of the game than they did for the people that were already in the stadium. Perhaps that was the problem, up to then, there hadn't been anything like it happen. A tragedy waiting to happen.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

It is clear the game was badly managed in a stadium that was dangerous. Had the police managed it better the tragedy would not have happened. It is also clear the police tried to cover up their mistake. The one bit I find hard to understand is the idea that fans were blameless. I used to go to football back then and know what it was like and it seems to me from the footage that some fans that were late cared more for seeing the start of the game than they did for the people that were already in the stadium. Perhaps that was the problem, up to then, there hadn't been anything like it happen. A tragedy waiting to happen.

And strange how heysel and the families affected by that are forgotten....

They won't be happy till Duckenfield has committed suicide or has been imprisoned.

I have deep sympathy for the families of the victims. They were very different times though. It's just sad. Time to let the souls rest in peace.

[newres]

Well according to the inquest the fans were blameless. The issue was a lack of turnstiles that caused thousands of people to be stuck in a bottleneck all desperate to get in for the kick off. Then a policeman made a bad decision to open a gate. He then lied and then lies piled on lies. It's very hard to see how the fans were anything but blameless.

[spartacus]

Remember the old Wembley Stadium? 1986 FA Cup Final? The city full of Liverpool and Everton fans...... many of those cheeky rascals without tickets showed how creative they could be in gaining entrance by clambering up the outside of the towers and in through windows. They also charged down a couple of turnstiles. Totally blameless. Totally innocent.

Those blameless scallywags were also safely tucked up at home nicking car tyres at the time of the Heysel Stadium incident. They had nothing to do with those 39 Juventus fans who were crushed and died. If you read scouser fan sites it was a Thatcher conspiracy and those who created the carnage were SAS Troopers in disguise (and I'm not kidding either as I have a few friends who have family that are convinced it was not their boys....)

[spartacus]

It's just sad. Time to let the souls rest in peace.

After their huge compo payout of course they will...

"What do we want?"
"Justice!..... and around £2m.."
"When do we want it?"
"Now!!"

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Remember the old Wembley Stadium? 1986 FA Cup Final? The city full of Liverpool and Everton fans...... many of those cheeky rascals without tickets showed how creative they could be in gaining entrance by clambering up the outside of the towers and in through windows. They also charged down a couple of turnstiles. Totally blameless. Totally innocent.

Those blameless scallywags were also safely tucked up at home nicking car tyres at the time of the Heysel Stadium incident. They had nothing to do with those 39 Juventus fans who were crushed and died. If you read scouser fan sites it was a Thatcher conspiracy and those who created the carnage were SAS Troopers in disguise (and I'm not kidding either as I have a few friends who have family that are convinced it was not their boys....)

People forget just how bad football hooligans were!

I support Stoke. Have done all my life. Even I knew going to a match back then was a bad idea. Most clubs had "firms" as they used to be known. Stokes was the "naughty forty". Times were hard. It was a release for the young to go and fight at the weekends as most did not have jobs.

I'm not excusing it. It's just a sad fact.

[je suis Charlie]

People forget just how bad football hooligans were!

I support Stoke. Have done all my life. Even I knew going to a match back then was a bad idea. Most clubs had "firms" as they used to be known. Stokes was the "naughty forty". Times were hard. It was a release for the young to go and fight at the weekends as most did not have jobs.

I'm not excusing it. It's just a sad fact.

Anyone remember the 6.57 crew? Pompey's real bad boys! Up to London to give Millwall a kicking! Them was the days.

[newres]

If I ever feel the need to remember what it is I don't like about the posters on this forum, I only need to look here to see prejudice and total ignorance on full display.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

If I ever feel the need to remember what it is I don't like about the posters on this forum, I only need to look here to see prejudice and total ignorance on full display.

I don't believe anyone would feel anything but sorrow for the terrible injustice these families have suffered. If you are old enough to remember these times though you would surely know that a lot of this is seen through rose tinted spectacles in terms of the innocence in general of footie fans. We were the scourge of Europe. That's why they banned ALL our teams.

[spartacus]

....and that's why it seems a travesty of justice to COMPLETELY exonerate those hundreds of ticket less fans (and there were hundreds) who rushed through the opened gates like a stampeding herd and crushed the life out of the caged and innocent fans who did have tickets for the Leppings Lane end.

All quite sad.

I can only assume that the jurors came to this conclusion for fear of having to sit in a dusty courtroom and watch ANOTHER two years of their life dribble away listening to evidence from teary and emotional scousers. ....

[newres]

....and that's why it seems a travesty of justice to COMPLETELY exonerate those hundreds of ticket less fans (and there were hundreds) who rushed through the opened gates like a stampeding herd and crushed the life out of the caged and innocent fans who did have tickets for the Leppings Lane end.

All quite sad.

I can only assume that the jurors came to this conclusion for fear of having to sit in a dusty courtroom and watch ANOTHER two years of their life dribble away listening to evidence from teary and emotional scousers. ....

It is normal for a popular team like Liverpool to have ticketless fans turn up. What isn't normal is to have so few access points.

Do you really think that the jurors would consider anything other than the evidence?

It was a balls up by the stadium, the police and the ambulance service. Otherwise why cover it up? So many things can be overcome. Unfortunately, prejudice isn't one of them.

[Turin Machine]

Here we go here we go here we go!

"More than 5,000 Liverpool fans could get compensation payouts over the Hillsborough disaster, lawyers have said.

Around 400 people including families of those killed and supporters who were injured have launched a High Court claim for damages following a jury's findings of police errors.

But lawyers say a much wider group could also be entitled to compensation - including everyone who was in the Leppings Lane End during the 1989 disaster."

[newres]

Without passing judgment one way or another, I would think people that witnessed that would have been profoundly affected. But its not relevant to the verdict.

[Turin Machine]

Without passing judgment one way or another, I would think people that witnessed that would have been profoundly affected. But its not relevant to the verdict.

Hmmm, I would think most of Liverpool would have been profoundly affected when German bombers raised it to the ground. Don't see them all rushing to get a slice of 'compo pie'. But still, not relevant to the verdict.

[Biker1]

Hmmm, I would think most of Liverpool would have been profoundly affected when German bombers raised it to the ground. Don't see them all rushing to get a slice of 'compo pie'. But still, not relevant to the verdict.

Or when John Lennon was murdered.

I think "raised to the ground" may be a bit of an oxymoron?
It's razed actually, but still not relevant to the verdict!

[Turin Machine]

Or when John Lennon was murdered.

I think "raised to the ground" may be a bit of an oxymoron?
It's razed actually, but still not relevant to the verdict!

Blame autocorrect.

[Andy Capp]

It is normal for a popular team like Liverpool to have ticketless fans turn up. What isn't normal is to have so few access points.

Do you really think that the jurors would consider anything other than the evidence?

It was a balls up by the stadium, the police and the ambulance service. Otherwise why cover it up? So many things can be overcome. Unfortunately, prejudice isn't one of them.

Prejudice is evident, but given that the police, FA and Sheffield Wednesday are all capable and in some cases were criminally inept, the reason that people died was a lack of care for other peoples' safety. Gate C was opened because people were pushing and it looks like mass gathering of people seems to exonerate individuals of their own and others' safety. Many football fans and fans of other entertainment, that involves mass support, behave like this.

I am not blaming the fans, I just don't accept they were completely blameless. Or should I say, I find it hard to accept.

[Turin Machine]

Prejudice is evident, but given that the police, FA and Sheffield Wednesday are all capable and in some cases were criminally inept, the reason that people died was a lack of care for other peoples' safety. Gate C was opened because people were pushing and it looks like mass gathering of people seems to exonerate individuals of their own and others' responsibilities. Many football fans and fans of other entertainment that involves mass support behave like this.

I am not blaming the fans, I just don't accept they were completely blameless.

This is true, there was, and is, fault to be found on all sides. However we sadly live in a society where responsibility for ones personal actions is ignored. To paraphrase the great Tacitus "its always someone else's fault". Which is why we have the proliferation of scumbag ambulance chasers today.

[blackdog]

I find the verdit of 'unlawfully killed' very unsettling. I don't think for a moment that anyone thought, "let's open the gate and kill a few scousers". Or even thought, "if we open the gates someone might die".

It was a ****-up of monumental proportions, a tragic decision made for what, at the time, seemed to be good reasons.

To declare this unlawful killing seems wrong.

That said every policeman involved in the subsequent cover up and attempts to shift the blame should be dismissed and charged with anything they can think of. This is the aspect of the case that I find unforgiveable.

[Simon Kirby]

I find the verdit of 'unlawfully killed' very unsettling. I don't think for a moment that anyone thought, "let's open the gate and kill a few scousers". Or even thought, "if we open the gates someone might die".

It was a ****-up of monumental proportions, a tragic decision made for what, at the time, seemed to be good reasons.

To declare this unlawful killing seems wrong.

That said every policeman involved in the subsequent cover up and attempts to shift the blame should be dismissed and charged with anything they can think of. This is the aspect of the case that I find unforgiveable.

See here.

What does unlawful killing mean?

This verdict means that the person was killed by an ‘unlawful act’ by someone or some others or as the result of their ‘gross negligence.’ These are both legal terms that are clearly defined in the criminal law. Unlawful killing is a very rare verdict.

The verdict of "unlawful killing" has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Seems fair to me.