IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

18 Pages V  « < 10 11 12 13 14 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Corbyn, This is democracy!!!!
GMR
post Sep 26 2016, 03:04 PM
Post #221


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 25 2016, 08:45 PM) *
I remember much the same was claimed about Mrs Thatcher. Ooh a woman, ooh strong right wing views, ooh too middle class.....theyve made a mistake and that's the Tory chances sunk for the next 10 years. All the pundits thought 'Sunny Jim' would scrape back again with a majority.... 'Once every thirty years there is asset change in politics....' We've had 'Thatcherisim' for over 30 years now; the tide us turning!





Yes, the tide is turning... we've got May now.

The only reason the pundits thought that Jim Callaghan would get back in are those that couldn't see a woman running the country. That was more to do with sexism than anything else.




I agree that change happens every so often, but usually by more stronger characters and they usually take their MPs with them. Corbyn only take his supporters, but in the country there is basically hostility towards him.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 26 2016, 03:40 PM
Post #222


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 04:04 PM) *
Yes, the tide is turning... we've got May now.

The only reason the pundits thought that Jim Callaghan would get back in are those that couldn't see a woman running the country. That was more to do with sexism than anything else.




I agree that change happens every so often, but usually by more stronger characters and they usually take their MPs with them. Corbyn only take his supporters, but in the country there is basically hostility towards him.


...but those same pundits now can't see a socialist running the County, I'd agree, that's more to do with predudice than anything else.




There was a lot of hostility to Mr Heath in 1970 and his MPs didn't really like him. We now know that if he'd lost, the high command were waiting ready with the knife....the Tories have always been far better assassins; they even have a permanent grouping - 1922 committee.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Sep 26 2016, 03:43 PM
Post #223


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 04:01 PM) *
If you follow him then you would know what accusations have been made against him. Yes, I have heard what you have heard, I've also heard about a sinister side.

OK, if you don't want to justify your position I'll leave it there, but it looks pretty odd when you have no problem with the stonking great falsehood from the party you support who promised in bad faith to fund the NHS with an extra £350million per week, but then you complain about Jeremy Corbyn being a dishonest man and offer no evidence in the face of him being recognised across the political divide as a thoroughly decent bloke with maybe just a tendency to dress like a geography teacher.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 26 2016, 04:33 PM
Post #224


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 26 2016, 04:40 PM) *
...but those same pundits now can't see a socialist running the County, I'd agree, that's more to do with predudice than anything else.


So are you saying that people are not going to vote for Labour because of "prejudice"? So to show they are not prejudice they should vote for them? Is that what you are saying? And what about the people who are prejudice or disagree with the Tories or LibDems or SNP. Have they got to vote for them to prove they are not prejudice?

QUOTE
There was a lot of hostility to Mr Heath in 1970 and his MPs didn't really like him. We now know that if he'd lost, the high command were waiting ready with the knife....the Tories have always been far better assassins; they even have a permanent grouping - 1922 committee.





There was not the same sort of hostility or hatred towards Heath as there has been against Corbyn by Labour voters and MPs.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 26 2016, 04:35 PM
Post #225


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 26 2016, 04:43 PM) *
OK, if you don't want to justify your position I'll leave it there, but it looks pretty odd when you have no problem with the stonking great falsehood from the party you support who promised in bad faith to fund the NHS with an extra £350million per week, but then you complain about Jeremy Corbyn being a dishonest man and offer no evidence in the face of him being recognised across the political divide as a thoroughly decent bloke with maybe just a tendency to dress like a geography teacher.





I didn't say that, I said, haven't you heard anything yourself? People say has been dishonest over the Jews, and there has been other questions over his political comments. Then there is the stunt over trains; that was dishonest. Then we can add the EU into the equation. And there is much more.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 26 2016, 04:54 PM
Post #226


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 05:33 PM) *
So are you saying that people are not going to vote for Labour because of "prejudice"? So to show they are not prejudice they should vote for them? Is that what you are saying? And what about the people who are prejudice or disagree with the Tories or LibDems or SNP. Have they got to vote for them to prove they are not prejudice?






There was not the same sort of hostility or hatred towards Heath as there has been against Corbyn by Labour voters and MPs.


Of course not, just the pundits, these are the people who said the electorate would vote to Remain. They also said the Coalition would continue etc. etc. ad infinitum.

The real issue with Labour, isn't it's core support, but the fellow travellers, those that Blair attracted. Have a look at Thatcher and Sons by Simon Jenkins.

Over the past thirty odd years, we've all been conditioned to accept command/control leadership and to simply accept propaganda without question. This was so obvious in the referendum campaign, where both sides produced bogus and doubtful data which was sold as absolute fact. The worst consequence of all this is that every politician becomes a liar.

One very clear message coming from the electorate during the recent election is that they can see through this and are looking for something new. Jeremy Corbyn, like his policies or not, is a conviction politician, who doesn't simply chase power for its own sake and willing to say it as is.

Remember, we are the generation that got taken in, the next are rather more savvy.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Sep 26 2016, 05:06 PM
Post #227


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 05:35 PM) *
I didn't say that, I said, haven't you heard anything yourself? People say has been dishonest over the Jews, and there has been other questions over his political comments. Then there is the stunt over trains; that was dishonest. Then we can add the EU into the equation. And there is much more.

Dishonest over the Jews? Can you be specific?

I didn't see anything dishonest about the train stunt. He was on a packed train and there were other people sitting in the corridors - I doubt very much that there was not a single seat to be found on the train, but the train was packed as many are, and it was an effective protest against the failure of private enterprise to provide an adequate rail service.

Sorry, the EU? Wasn't that UKIP who lied about the NHS funding?


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blackdog
post Sep 26 2016, 05:45 PM
Post #228


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,945
Joined: 5-June 09
Member No.: 130



Corbyn is unelectable because the press and media constantly portray him as an incompetent left wing loony. I don't suppose this will change. so people will not take him seriously and vote against him no matter how much they like his policies.

Nevertheless he does have a huge problem as a leader - which is his long history of refusing to follow previous leaders through the voting lobby. With his record it is almost impossible for him to demand his MPs follow his lead.

Personally I think he has been just what British politics needed, a genuine alternative to the multi-party adherence to Thatcherite 'truths'.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 26 2016, 06:19 PM
Post #229


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 26 2016, 05:54 PM) *
Of course not, just the pundits, these are the people who said the electorate would vote to Remain. They also said the Coalition would continue etc. etc. ad infinitum.


Yes, but that is guess work. What they say about Corbyn is totally different. It is nothing to do with guess work but looking at the facts.

QUOTE
The real issue with Labour, isn't it's core support, but the fellow travellers, those that Blair attracted. Have a look at Thatcher and Sons by Simon Jenkins.


I've read it.

QUOTE
Over the past thirty odd years, we've all been conditioned to accept command/control leadership and to simply accept propaganda without question. This was so obvious in the referendum campaign, where both sides produced bogus and doubtful data which was sold as absolute fact. The worst consequence of all this is that every politician becomes a liar.


I agree, however, are you now saying that we should accept another type of propaganda? Every politician is regarded as a liar, even Corbyn, however, when you analyse it and what is left isn't a drawing us towards Corbyn's brand of politics.

QUOTE
One very clear message coming from the electorate during the recent election is that they can see through this and are looking for something new. Jeremy Corbyn, like his policies or not, is a conviction politician, who doesn't simply chase power for its own sake and willing to say it as is.


Yes, they can see though it, they also can see through Corbyn. Yes, Corbyn is a conviction politician, but that isn't reason enough to vote for him. There are many unsavory conviction politicians out there, but that doesn't mean we should willy-nilly vote for them. We only vote for somebody if their message appeals to the masses, not just the idiots and those that are blinded.

QUOTE
Remember, we are the generation that got taken in, the next are rather more savvy.


One thing we learn from people and human nature... nothing changes. People are no more savvy than they were yesterday. And savvy doesn't mean gullible, and that is why people won't vote for Corbyn.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 26 2016, 06:24 PM
Post #230


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 26 2016, 06:06 PM) *
Dishonest over the Jews? Can you be specific?


Are you telling me you don't know anything? Don't you read the news?

QUOTE
I didn't see anything dishonest about the train stunt. He was on a packed train and there were other people sitting in the corridors - I doubt very much that there was not a single seat to be found on the train, but the train was packed as many are, and it was an effective protest against the failure of private enterprise to provide an adequate rail service.


Actually there were seats available. He was pulling a stunt.

QUOTE
Sorry, the EU? Wasn't that UKIP who lied about the NHS funding?


They played semantics, but so did both sides... and both sides lied. But that wasn't what I said. Corbyn spent his life voting against the EU. He was pounced into supporting the In campaigners... but when he did campaign he played with words to give the impression that he was for staying In, he wasn't.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 26 2016, 06:26 PM
Post #231


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (blackdog @ Sep 26 2016, 06:45 PM) *
Corbyn is unelectable because the press and media constantly portray him as an incompetent left wing loony. I don't suppose this will change. so people will not take him seriously and vote against him no matter how much they like his policies. Nevertheless he does have a huge problem as a leader - which is his long history of refusing to follow previous leaders through the voting lobby. With his record it is almost impossible for him to demand his MPs follow his lead. Personally I think he has been just what British politics needed, a genuine alternative to the multi-party adherence to Thatcherite 'truths'.


The press can portray him as they like, but that doesn't mean the public also can't see him that way with or without the Presses help.

He is a "genuine alternative" that will keep the Tories in power for generations.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 26 2016, 06:29 PM
Post #232


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (blackdog @ Sep 26 2016, 06:45 PM) *
Corbyn is unelectable because the press and media constantly portray him as an incompetent left wing loony. I don't suppose this will change. so people will not take him seriously and vote against him no matter how much they like his policies.

Nevertheless he does have a huge problem as a leader - which is his long history of refusing to follow previous leaders through the voting lobby. With his record it is almost impossible for him to demand his MPs follow his lead.

Personally I think he has been just what British politics needed, a genuine alternative to the multi-party adherence to Thatcherite 'truths'.


Yes, I think your last paragraph about sums it up. Even if he doesn't get elected and simply starts that shift, he'll have been for the good. I'd also hazard a guess that press and media influence might well have reached a high watermark. Social media and disinterest because of news overload is beginning to have an effect.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 26 2016, 06:34 PM
Post #233


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 07:19 PM) *
Yes, but that is guess work. What they say about Corbyn is totally different. It is nothing to do with guess work but looking at the facts.



I've read it.



I agree, however, are you now saying that we should accept another type of propaganda? Every politician is regarded as a liar, even Corbyn, however, when you analyse it and what is left isn't a drawing us towards Corbyn's brand of politics.



Yes, they can see though it, they also can see through Corbyn. Yes, Corbyn is a conviction politician, but that isn't reason enough to vote for him. There are many unsavory conviction politicians out there, but that doesn't mean we should willy-nilly vote for them. We only vote for somebody if their message appeals to the masses, not just the idiots and those that are blinded.



One thing we learn from people and human nature... nothing changes. People are no more savvy than they were yesterday. And savvy doesn't mean gullible, and that is why people won't vote for Corbyn.


OK, we won't agree but what is the big fear you have of Jeremy Corbyn? That he might keep the Tories in power for 20 years can be no bad thing if you support them, or UKIP, or indeed the coalition LibDems, so what's the issue? The mantra that good opposition means good government is demonstrably untrue, so it can't be that; so again, why worry about a failure that will keep your opponent on the floor?


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Sep 26 2016, 06:47 PM
Post #234


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 07:24 PM) *
Are you telling me you don't know anything? Don't you read the news?

No, really, I have no idea what you're point is. If you have something to say then out with it.

QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 07:24 PM) *
Actually there were seats available. He was pulling a stunt.

Yes, I'm sure there were seats available, but it was packed and it was a legitimate stunt to highlight the fact that too many trains are packed. Had the train been empty then it would indeed have been a dishonest representation, but there were other passengers sitting in corridors and they weren't pulling a stunt, it's just what you do on a packed train.

QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 26 2016, 07:24 PM) *
They played semantics, but so did both sides... and both sides lied. But that wasn't what I said. Corbyn spent his life voting against the EU. He was pounced into supporting the In campaigners... but when he did campaign he played with words to give the impression that he was for staying In, he wasn't.

Semantics? UKIP said very clearly in letters the size of a bus that they would divert the EU contribution to better fund the NHS, and that was knowingly false and dishonest. I have no idea what you think is dishonest about Corbyn taking the considered view that, on balance, remaining in the EU is a better choice for the nation than leaving. You very obviously don't agree with him, but that doesn't make his position dishonest.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Biker1
post Sep 26 2016, 06:52 PM
Post #235


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 5,040
Joined: 26-May 09
Member No.: 103



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 26 2016, 07:47 PM) *
Yes, I'm sure there were seats available, but it was packed and it was a legitimate stunt to highlight the fact that too many trains are packed. Had the train been empty then it would indeed have been a dishonest representation, but there were other passengers sitting in corridors and they weren't pulling a stunt, it's just what you do on a packed train.

I don't. I go and find a seat!!! If you sit on the floor when seats are available then it is your choice!
Yes, too many trains are packed but there are many reasons for this. Not just the fact that the railways a "semi" privatised.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Andy Capp
post Sep 26 2016, 08:38 PM
Post #236


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 11,894
Joined: 3-September 09
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 26 2016, 07:47 PM) *
Semantics? UKIP said very clearly in letters the size of a bus that they would divert the EU contribution to better fund the NHS, and that was knowingly false and dishonest. I have no idea what you think is dishonest about Corbyn taking the considered view that, on balance, remaining in the EU is a better choice for the nation than leaving. You very obviously don't agree with him, but that doesn't make his position dishonest.

I have seen no bus advert stating UKIP would divert any money. I saw a proposal that should happen but that isn't the same thing. We weren't voting for a party, we were voting to stay or leave the EU.

With Corbyn it is rumoured he was a closet Brexit and his apparent lacklustre support for Remain seemed to support this in some people's eyes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Simon Kirby
post Sep 26 2016, 08:44 PM
Post #237


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,326
Joined: 20-July 10
From: Wash Common
Member No.: 1,011



QUOTE (Biker1 @ Sep 26 2016, 07:52 PM) *
I don't. I go and find a seat!!! If you sit on the floor when seats are available then it is your choice!
Yes, too many trains are packed but there are many reasons for this. Not just the fact that the railways a "semi" privatised.

I've done both, and on a long journey I'd probably poke up with whoever it was I had to sit next to in order to get a seat, or I might just stand, and if I'd decided to stand I might then decide to sit in the corridor - like I say, Corbyn wasn't the only passenger sitting on the floor and those other passengers weren't pulling a stunt, they were just riding a crowded train, and so in my view there was nothing dishonest in the stunt and like t or not it was a valid criticism of how crowded the train was - and by implication how crowded some routes are.

As for attacking the principle of privatisation that's obviously more of a debate as rail was hardly perfect when it was formally nationalised so it's a stretch to say that re-nationalisation would be an improvement, but Corbyn is perfectly entitled to articulate that argument.


--------------------
Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 26 2016, 08:44 PM
Post #238


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 26 2016, 09:38 PM) *
I have seen no bus advert stating UKIP would divert any money. I saw a proposal that should happen but that isn't the same thing. We weren't voting for a party, we were voting to stay or leave the EU.

With Corbyn it is rumoured he was a closet Brexit and his apparent lacklustre support for Remain seemed to support this in some people's eyes.


The same could be levelled against Theresa May and she's become PM cool.gif


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
newres
post Sep 26 2016, 08:59 PM
Post #239


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,558
Joined: 27-November 12
Member No.: 8,961



QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 26 2016, 09:38 PM) *
I have seen no bus advert stating UKIP would divert any money. I saw a proposal that should happen but that isn't the same thing. We weren't voting for a party, we were voting to stay or leave the EU.

But it appealed to the base instinct often found that lurks behind "charity begins at home". It isn't a choice between the NHS and the EU, but to be blunt a lot of our population aren't bright enough to see that and aren't too fond of Johnny Foreigner either.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
je suis Charlie
post Sep 26 2016, 09:14 PM
Post #240


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,456
Joined: 10-January 15
Member No.: 10,530



QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 25 2016, 08:46 AM) *
You can read the Chakrabarti report for yourself, but if you want the executive summary: there is no institutional anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Credit to Corbyn though for commissioning an open independent report so swiftly, I can't think of any other political party that would have done as much.

But enough of the deflection and smears, you made the assertion that UKIP had made good on their promises and I've challenged that because the NHS funding promise was the most spectacular lie of their campaign and will have suckered millions of people into supporting Brexit where otherwise they wouldn't have, and even the fundamental basis of UKIP's campaign is now looking bogus as the remaining EU states disabuse Blighty of that baseless UKIP promise that the UK will be allowed access to the single market without allowing freedom of movement.

The report that has been widely called a 'whitewash' and whose auther was handed a peerage within weeks of its publication. That report?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

18 Pages V  « < 10 11 12 13 14 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 9th April 2020 - 06:00 PM