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> Planting the seeds for community grown food
Simon Kirby
post Aug 27 2012, 10:45 AM
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Eric Pickles has published a guide to help aspiring vegetable growers find land. There's a couple of hundred thousand people around the UK wanting to grow-their-own and the problem isn't so much that the land isn't available but rather that local authorities aren't doing anything to make it available for growing.

In many cases allotment sites are under-used with beds and marginal areas that became overgrown in the eighties still standing uncultivated, but Pickles also identifies the large local authority holdings of communal land as suitable for cultivation. He's not advocating a Dig-for-Victory campaign with municipal parks, recreation grounds, and sports pitches ploughed up for veggie growing, but he's talking about all the various green spaces around any town. Take for example the acres of grass around the hospital in Thatcham. That's all maintained at a cost to the tax-payer and yet much of it could be let as allotments making a much more inviting place to walk around and relax. Same with Hospital Green, it's an uninspiring patch of grass with a single planting bed maintained at a cost to the tax-payer, but it would make a super little allotment site which would be much more interesting to see driving into town. There are also very many smaller patches of grass around towns that are maintained by local councils and many of those could be adopted by one or two gardeners.

The problem that Eric Pickles does not address is the great Big Society myth. People aren't used to doing stuff for themselves, and local authorities don't want them to. I very much doubt anyone will approach one of our councils on the strength of the Pickles guide, and anyone who does ask for a grow-your-own site as Pickles envisions is just going to be frustrated.


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Strafin
post Aug 27 2012, 11:18 AM
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I would love an allotment but the waiting lists are long. I didn't know that the land you mention is maintained by the taxpayer. I wonder if there's any mileage in seeing what the council think? I might give them a ring tomorrow.
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lordtup
post Aug 27 2012, 01:32 PM
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Surely it must be one of biggest ironies of modern times that we invest copious amounts of effort importing vegetables from the near continent when we not only have the availability of local land but the labour to achieve. But of course there is no supermarket profit to be gained from "grow your own".
The point raised regarding societies apathy is valid but I doubt the "work shy" ( stereotypical quote, no apology ) are the sort who would spend their weekend digging.
Maybe we should just take the land anyway. After all if it is owned by the council it is in reality owned by the rate payers, ie us . Or is that just being simplistic. rolleyes.gif


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Jayjay
post Aug 27 2012, 03:35 PM
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Read an article this week on this subject. Growing on unused land is spreading across the country. The people doing it do not ask the council for permission and there does not seem to be a problem. They had tomatoes growing outside the police station and scouts get a badge for doing it. I will go through the recycling and see if I can find the info.

Edit : found a link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...ng-ALL-veg.html
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dannyboy
post Aug 27 2012, 04:07 PM
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Would the produce grown be available for anyone to pick?
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Simon Kirby
post Aug 27 2012, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (Jayjay @ Aug 27 2012, 04:35 PM) *
Read an article this week on this subject. Growing on unused land is spreading across the country. The people doing it do not ask the council for permission and there does not seem to be a problem. They had tomatoes growing outside the police station and scouts get a badge for doing it. I will go through the recycling and see if I can find the info.

Edit : found a link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...ng-ALL-veg.html

I'm familiar with Incredible Edible Todmorden, but it's a more abitious social experiment than what Pickles is promoting. The produce is available for anyone to pick:
QUOTE
So what’s to stop me turning up with a huge carrier bag and grabbing all the rosemary in the town?

‘Nothing,’ says Mary.

What’s to stop me nabbing all the apples?

‘Nothing.’

All your raspberries?

‘Nothing.’

It just doesn’t happen like that, she says. ‘We trust people. We truly believe — we are witness to it — that people are decent.’

Read more.

It's an interesting experiment, and if it creates a measurable social improvement then it should be tried more widely, but for me it goes much further than I'm comfortable. It seems to want to create a social collective and I'm just not interested in that - enlightened self-interest, yes, but not altruism. The Pickles idea is stil quite radical, but in essence it's nothing new, it's just establishing private gardens in public places.


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Simon Kirby
post Aug 27 2012, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Aug 27 2012, 05:07 PM) *
Would the produce grown be available for anyone to pick?

It could be if that's what the grower wants - allotmenteers typically have gluts and welcome the opportunity to give away their surplus - but there's nothing in Pickles' plan to suggest these new beds would be anything but private gardens in public places. It would probably take a bit of getting used to, but people are basically pretty sensible and just as they understand that they aren't expected to pick the daffodils in the public park, so they're not expected to pick the fruit and vegetables in the beds.


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Simon Kirby
post Aug 27 2012, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (lordtup @ Aug 27 2012, 02:32 PM) *
Surely it must be one of biggest ironies of modern times that we invest copious amounts of effort importing vegetables from the near continent when we not only have the availability of local land but the labour to achieve. But of course there is no supermarket profit to be gained from "grow your own".
The point raised regarding societies apathy is valid but I doubt the "work shy" ( stereotypical quote, no apology ) are the sort who would spend their weekend digging.
Maybe we should just take the land anyway. After all if it is owned by the council it is in reality owned by the rate payers, ie us . Or is that just being simplistic. rolleyes.gif

You're describing Guerrilla Gardening - people growing in public places without asking for permission. It's an excellent way for empowered communities to reclaim their public spaces from the petty jobsworth local government bureaucrats who would see them excluded, but in Newbury the Town Council would just call the police and demand they charge you with criminal damage if you tried it on their land - and they very much see it as theirs, not yours.

I think you unfairly malign what you call the work-shy. If you haven't grown up in an allotmenteering family it would probably not occur to you to get an allotment. Allotmenteering would need to be positively promoted to more than the socially engaged middle-classes, and that is the real challenge.


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On the edge
post Aug 27 2012, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 27 2012, 06:08 PM) *
You're describing Guerrilla Gardening - people growing in public places without asking for permission. It's an excellent way for empowered communities to reclaim their public spaces from the petty jobsworth local government bureaucrats who would see them excluded, but in Newbury the Town Council would just call the police and demand they charge you with criminal damage if you tried it on their land - and they very much see it as theirs, not yours.

I think you unfairly malign what you call the work-shy. If you haven't grown up in an allotmenteering family it would probably not occur to you to get an allotment. Allotmenteering would need to be positively promoted to more than the socially engaged middle-classes, and that is the real challenge.


Think you are spot on. A close friend of mine ran a 'Gardening Club' at her, shall we say 'unfashionable' School. Being a passionate gardener anyway; it took off. She found some of the more troublesome kids suddenly became interested, particularly when they were able to use 'big tools'. Anyway, the stuff they grew, they could eat. Several Mums came up and asked about growing things themselves - never having previously considered the idea. From little acorns....!


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Timbo
post Aug 28 2012, 08:40 AM
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Erica Pickles is writing a guide on how to grow lettuces.
Ironic, huh? smile.gif
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blackdog
post Aug 28 2012, 09:24 AM
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NTC have been pushing the idea of growing edible crops in park flowerbeds etc and planting fruit and nut trees in preference to alternatives. Martha Vickers is the councillor who seems most involved.

As for turning lawns like Hospital Green into allotments - I'm against it. I prefer the neatness of lawns to the chaos of veggie patches in prominent positions like that. I also prefer public spaces to remain public - whereas allotments are almost always fenced off.

If there is a long waiting list for allotments the council should seriously consider using its powers to purchase land to create new allotments.
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Jayjay
post Aug 28 2012, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 28 2012, 10:24 AM) *
NTC have been pushing the idea of growing edible crops in park flowerbeds etc and planting fruit and nut trees in preference to alternatives. Martha Vickers is the councillor who seems most involved.

As for turning lawns like Hospital Green into allotments - I'm against it. I prefer the neatness of lawns to the chaos of veggie patches in prominent positions like that. I also prefer public spaces to remain public - whereas allotments are almost always fenced off.

If there is a long waiting list for allotments the council should seriously consider using its powers to purchase land to create new allotments.


You need to do some lateral thinking on this. There is no need to dig up cultivated land such as parks, why not use uncultivated land? We have miles of towpaths in the area where there is currently a lot of scrub land. Would look much better with some runner beans in flower.

I scatter any spare seed I have along the grass verges.
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dannyboy
post Aug 28 2012, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (Jayjay @ Aug 28 2012, 05:57 PM) *
You need to do some lateral thinking on this. There is no need to dig up cultivated land such as parks, why not use uncultivated land? We have miles of towpaths in the area where there is currently a lot of scrub land. Would look much better with some runner beans in flower.

I scatter any spare seed I have along the grass verges.

Those areas a rich & diverse wildlife habitat. If anywhere is to be grubbed up for growing crops it should be plain old grass.
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Simon Kirby
post Aug 28 2012, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Aug 28 2012, 06:00 PM) *
Those areas a rich & diverse wildlife habitat. If anywhere is to be grubbed up for growing crops it should be plain old grass.

We don't often see eye-to-eye, but I have some sympathy for that point of view.


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Simon Kirby
post Aug 28 2012, 07:01 PM
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So what about Hospital Green? That could easily be turned into a formal garden with fruit trees and crops, I'd have thought that would be much more appealing for the residents of the flats and passers-by on the Andover Road. I bet I could find a dozen volunteer gardeners who would want to maintain the whole thing for nothing, and I dare say the residents of the flats would get a good share of the crops into the bargain.


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Andy Capp
post Aug 28 2012, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 28 2012, 08:01 PM) *
So what about Hospital Green? That could easily be turned into a formal garden with fruit trees and crops, I'd have thought that would be much more appealing for the residents of the flats and passers-by on the Andover Road. I bet I could find a dozen volunteer gardeners who would want to maintain the whole thing for nothing, and I dare say the residents of the flats would get a good share of the crops into the bargain.

I see no chance there. I would imagine it would be deemed an inappropriate gateway for Newbury town.
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Simon Kirby
post Aug 28 2012, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 28 2012, 08:05 PM) *
I see no chance there. I would imagine it would deemed an inappropriate gateway for Newbury town.

I'm sure you're right, but Eric Pickles is a tory minister so I'd like to hear what the local tories have to say for themselves - and perhaps they'd like to write and tell Pickles themselves.


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On the edge
post Aug 28 2012, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 28 2012, 08:01 PM) *
So what about Hospital Green? That could easily be turned into a formal garden with fruit trees and crops, I'd have thought that would be much more appealing for the residents of the flats and passers-by on the Andover Road. I bet I could find a dozen volunteer gardeners who would want to maintain the whole thing for nothing, and I dare say the residents of the flats would get a good share of the crops into the bargain.


That would be a great idea and create a notable entrance. A feature like Waterers Floral Mile on A4 . Suspect its all in the design, that is some degree of formality and feature type plants such as trees. This might stifle the objections to allotments / food production - which conjurers up images of draggle tailed bean poles and semi derelict sheds! Having someone produce a perspective drawing might help.

Planting shrubs and trees tight alongside roads can also reduce ambient speeds - often far more effective than humps or chicanes. Perhaps another opportunity?


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Exhausted
post Aug 30 2012, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 28 2012, 10:38 PM) *
That would be a great idea and create a notable entrance. A feature like Waterers Floral Mile on A4 . Suspect its all in the design, that is some degree of formality and feature type plants such as trees. This might stifle the objections to allotments / food production - which conjurers up images of draggle tailed bean poles and semi derelict sheds!


Not sure that Hospital Green would be enhanced by a load of allotments and the usual stuff that goes with them. OK for a designated allotment but not on a gateway site. By usual stuff, a load of sheds built from pallets or corrugated iron, straggly old rakes of bean poles and pea sticks. Hospital Green is a pleasure all year round, tended lovingly by the Town Council's contractor and a riot of flowers in well kept beds. Much nicer than a load of old cabbages.

I know this is one of Simon's pet soapboxes but if he believes that there is a need for veg gardens then rent an unused field from a local farmer rather than jumping on a bandwaggon driven by some publicity seeking politician.
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Simon Kirby
post Aug 30 2012, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Aug 30 2012, 10:42 PM) *
Not sure that Hospital Green would be enhanced by a load of allotments and the usual stuff that goes with them. OK for a designated allotment but not on a gateway site. By usual stuff, a load of sheds built from pallets or corrugated iron, straggly old rakes of bean poles and pea sticks. Hospital Green is a pleasure all year round, tended lovingly by the Town Council's contractor and a riot of flowers in well kept beds. Much nicer than a load of old cabbages.

I know this is one of Simon's pet soapboxes but if he believes that there is a need for veg gardens then rent an unused field from a local farmer rather than jumping on a bandwaggon driven by some publicity seeking politician.

You're talking about allotments, but for a show site like Hospital Green formal gardens would be much more appropriate. No reason why you can't grow flowers, trees, fruit, and vegetables in formal gardens - been to plenty that do just that, and they look great - and no reason why it can't be tended by volunteers, only a lack of vision and engagement.

But I suspect councils up and down the country - tory and non-tory - will react just as you have to Pickles' idea, and I think it's a shame. For me it's not so much about making land available for growing (though there is a need for that) it's more about giving communities back to people Big-Society style.


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