The Death Penalty, Parliamentary debate may be triggered by e-petition Options

[Simon Kirby]

Why is this a big issue? Isn't it only just at least to execute murderers?

[JeffG]

Here we go again.

As long as we are members of the EU, it ain't gonna happen.

And as long as we remain a civilized country.

[Simon Kirby]

As long as we are members of the EU, it ain't gonna happen.

How's that then?

And as long as we remain a civilized country.

Executing murderers isn't civilised? I suggest that civiliastion is a contract between citizen and state: The citizen can't take the law into her own hands, but rather the state will see that justice is done. But is it justice that murderers are allowed to live on when their victims can't? Without justice the contract is broken, and it's that contract that underpins civilised society.

[Andy Capp]

How's that then?

Capital punishment is outlawed in the EU.

Executing murderers isn't civilised? I suggest that civiliastion is a contract between citizen and state: The citizen can't take the law into her own hands, but rather the state will see that justice is done. But is it justice that murderers are allowed to live on when their victims can't? Without justice the contract is broken, and it's that contract that underpins civilised society.

One first has to establish the true meaning of victim. I suggest that many criminals are 'victims' of being a creature. We cannot chose our DNA.

[user23]

As long as we are members of the EU, it ain't gonna happen.

And as long as we remain a civilized country.

Exactly. We'd have to leave the EU to do this though I suspect this wouldn't be a problem to many who support the re-introduction of the death penalty.

[Strafin]

I think it would be good to have a voluntary scheme. For example a serial murderer like Hyndley or West who are/were never likely to be released could request a human death sentence, rather than life in prison.

[Simon Kirby]

Capital punishment is outlawed in the EU.

It would appear that the Treaty of Lisbon which we signed in 2007 made the Charter of Fundamental Rights legally binding, and as the Charter prohibits capital punishment it would appear that the death penaly could not be brought back without some additional changes.

One first has to establish the true meaning of victim. I suggest that many criminals are 'victims' of being a creature. We cannot chose our DNA.

I see it in simpler terms, I'm simply suggesting that natural justice requires that murderers be executed.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

Executing murderers isn't civilised?

No.

[On the edge]

I see it in simpler terms, I'm simply suggesting that natural justice requires that murderers be executed.

I suspect that's how the majority see it. The case for retaining the death penalty wasn't helped by the Bentley or Ellis cases in the 1950s - where the justice system was a little flawed.

[Simon Kirby]

No.

Care to elaborate?

[user23]

The case for retaining the death penalty wasn't helped by the Bentley or Ellis cases in the 1950s - where the justice system was a little flawed.

Nor is it helped by the fact that having the death penalty actually seems to raise instances of murder, in the USA at least.

It seems that a life in prison is more of a deterrent than execution.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

For all you knee-jerkers out there who may be having a party in your underwear at the thought of stringing someone up, (possibly even the right person) in order to show that kiling someone is wrong - here's a perhaps more reflective view of this e-petition.

There are presently just over 40 online e-petitons calling for some form of reinstatement of capital punishment in some way or another.

There are over 8500 e-petition votes against it. One e-petition has over 7300 against signatures. (or at least it did on August 5th) Which more than all the 'pro' others combined.

On the 5th August the 'hangers' had 6000 votes in total, across all the petitions. In order to be even considered for a debate they need 100,000, on just one of them, So in every sense they have a way to go yet. Still, some seem to have fallen for it.


link

[Andy Capp]

I see it in simpler terms, I'm simply suggesting that natural justice requires that murderers be executed.

Requires? replace 'requires' with 'would see', would make more sense.

[Simon Kirby]

Nor is it helped by the fact that having the death penalty actually seems to raise instances of murder, in the USA at least.

It seems that a life in prison is more of a deterrent than execution.

And here's a graph to prove the correlation between global warming and pirates.


Correlation is not good evidence of a causal link, particularly when the evidence is presented by religious ideologues.

Look at the data in detail and you'll see that there is actually no corellation between murder rate and whether or not the state has the death penalty. What does emerge is that murder rate would appear to be correlated to the socio-ecconomic situation in the state. Poor and druggy District of Columbia doesn't have the death penalty but has the higest murder rate of any state at over 30 per hundred thousand, whereas sleepy affluent New Hampshire has the death penalty but has the lowest murder rate of any state at just over one per hundred thousand.

But in any event, I'm not arguing for the death penaly as a deterrent, I'm arguing for it as a punishment.

[user23]

For all you knee-jerkers out there... link

You're right, but those figures are out of date.

The most popular ePetition is "Petition to retain the ban on Capital Punishment". "Restore Capital Punishment" is fourth with just over 50% of the votes of the first places ePetition. Current figures are here.

It seems the majority of people want to keep things as they are.

But in any event, I'm not arguing for the death penaly as a deterrant, I'm arguing for it as a punishment.

You're not arguing we should deter people from committing murder, just punish them by killing them when they do?

I suspect a psychoanalyst could have a field day with you.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

You're not arguing we should deter people from committing murder, just punish them by killing them when they do?

That's what he said....... 'hang 'em by the neck until they realise just how naughty they've been.'

[Simon Kirby]

You're not arguing we should deter people from committing murder, just punish them by killing them when they do?

I've said nothing about deterrence. I'm arguing that the death penalty for murder is a necessary punishment to satisfy natural justice.

If you could frame an argument that the death penalty was a weaker deterrent than imprisonment then that would be a valid point, but the ill-founded analysis of the religious organisation that you quoted didn't do that.

[user23]

I've said nothing about deterrence. I'm arguing that the death penalty for murder is a necessary punishment to satisfy natural justice.

You seem a tad zealous to have folk killed in the name of natural justice which is ironic given some murderers cite natural justice as an explanations for their actions too.

Punishment should always act as a deterrent to prevent a crime, not as vengeance once a crime has been committed.

[Dodgys smarter b...]

But in any event, I'm not arguing for the death penaly as a deterrent

I've said nothing about deterrence.

Clearly you have.

[Simon Kirby]

Punishment should always act as a deterrent to prevent a crime, not as vengeance once a crime has been committed.

That's no argument. Why should it be so?